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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Wow.... Thanks for the visual.

I registered for next year and immediately regret it. I'd rather have a slow race relative to the participants of the IMFl Group Ride but it looks like 3-4-5 abreast that extends pretty far. does not cheating mean you end up being the guy pulling that pack?



George Schmitz
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

not in any games I reffed. Now if you were to say that if your stick hits anyone in the helmet...ever. Then that is an automatic high stick penalty (in the minor leagues with the small tykes). But your interpretation of that rule wouldn't be accurate up here. Otherwise, you would have folks skating over to someone, jumping on their stick and falling down.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

not in any games I reffed. Now if you were to say that if your stick hits anyone in the helmet...ever. Then that is an automatic high stick penalty (in the minor leagues with the small tykes). But your interpretation of that rule wouldn't be accurate up here. Otherwise, you would have folks skating over to someone, jumping on their stick and falling down.

No, incorrect, jumping on an opponent's stick would not result in the opponent getting a tripping call, you would get an unsportsmanlike conduct call. They have written the rules both ways.

If the puck is in an opponent's feet, and I go after it with my stick causing him to fall, it's tripping. Those are the rules in the U.S. In Canada, your rules are enforced much more to the spirit of the game BUT I've seen that same call made dozens of times.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [miwoodar] [ In reply to ]
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I have the same exact question - are they victims of an over-crowded course and how do you keep your pace and stay away from it? The hard part, if you are going faster, is getting through the group w/o crossing the double yellow line. That's the part that concerns me. Obviously, it can be done, but it would not be fun. I've run into this among slower riders several times when my wave (35-39) starts later and usually it's only 3-4 people, which isn't bad. In this video, there's a lot more to deal with. So not only are people drafting, they are also making it more difficult for others on the course.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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There have been quite a few Ironman World Champions crowned after serving drafting penalties. Off the top of my head-Paula-Newby Fraser, Natascha Badmann, Nina Craft (later DQ'd for doping), Luc Van Lierde, and Tim DeBoom.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [ In reply to ]
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completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

I would like to see how that would fly in the Peoples Republic of Madison, a lot of villages on the outskirts of town hate the race already.

Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid. Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second. I know crazy talk!

Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ttx_tri] [ In reply to ]
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completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

How much would that cost?


Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid.

Are marshals different than offiicals? If not, my only concern with this idea is that Officials (the ones that are getting paid), should get paid simply for being there. They should get a base pay in addition to this pay per infraction. You can argue whether or not they do enough now, but I'm guessing if you really want to get people to do an effective job, you have to pay them besides actually what they report during the race. (there are some officials who are in probation periods and may not be paid, but for the officials who do tri's and get paid, they deserve a base salary).

Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second.

I love that idea, not sure why it's not a stiffer penalty.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [ In reply to ]
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I can tell by your run time you didn't draft. bike time = run time. When you post on a forum you open yourself up. However, you can hold your head high as you were leading the peloton. However, I can not say that for the guys behind you.

As for being posted on the internet and youtube, that's just a reflection on society and one of the negatives of the internet. Nothing seems private anymore and people are quick to judge based on a 2:00 minute video. Some were cheating, some were leading, some were trying to get out of the pack and some were trying to ride legally behind the pack. Too many people on a flat course and nobody is willing to give or not much of a deterent to give once the peloton forms.

Hope you had a good time and enjoyed Florida.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ttx_tri] [ In reply to ]
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Easy solution. 2 waves.
wave 1), the "event" wave starts at 6:30, white caps, white numbers.
wave 2), the "podium" wave starts at 9:00, yellow caps, yellow numbers.

Same cost, same rules, same midnight cutoff, only kona slots and prizes for wave 2.
Officials focus 80% of their effort on wave 2.
I'm guessing wave 1 is a lot bigger than wave 2. If it isn't the first year, push the wave 2 start out an extra 1/2 hour/year till it is.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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You are trolling on the wrong site if you are looking for dates....from all I have seen from you I am sure that is your desired age
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

Same goes for drafting. Period.

What races do you marshall, I don't want to race there. You obviously don't give racers a level playing field.

Yes, you're responsible for your own actions; no, it's not a tripping call, period. It's a judgement call by the official, especially when both players are going for the puck at the same time. A 'trip' that happens accidentally should not get a penalty, just like drafting that happens WITHOUT INTENT shouldn't incur a penalty. As a matter of fact, we should call it something else... maybe "I got WTCed in Florida when I was sucked up in a pack..." ;) I, for one, WOULD do IMFL again; it's fast, it's fun, and I'm only in it for myself...

bry-
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Letters people....letters. Hard copy-snail mailed.....if you paid for this race and didn't like what you saw & want to be heard:

Florida Office:
Ironman World Headquarters
World Triathlon Corporation
2701 North Rocky Point Drive
Suite 1250
Tampa, FL 33607
(813) 868-5940 Phone
(813) 868-5930 Fax
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)

Your smiley face is duly noted. I'm all for accountability. However, I do feel sorry for the slower swimmer/faster cyclist who might have happened upon one of the filmed groups and might have been trying desperately to get through or past the group. I think it's fair to ask if there aren't more blocking violations in evidence on those videos than there are drafting violations. I've yet to attend a race where I didn't see WAY more blocking than drafting (though I've never attended an IM-branded event). You're supposed to make your pass and then get the f__k out of the way!
Last edited by: psycholist: Nov 10, 09 13:14
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Afleet Alex] [ In reply to ]
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sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

First of all - excellent video coverage from the OP ... and welcome to my world.

A couple comments - and not all of them directed at your post:
  • I am not an event director - just a person hired to watch for rule violations.
  • My job is not to prevent drafting, but call it when I see it.
  • There were 14 draft marshals on the course.
  • 190 people visited the 3 penalty tents.
  • We had a positive affect on many of the groups referenced in the video - I wish someone would have documented that.
  • We can't be everywhere.
  • There were PLENTY of athletes who raced fairly in IMFL - a majority.
  • We did not catch everyone.
  • The time penalties for drafting were in place before I was conned into this job.
  • I will continue to explore ways to discourage drafting and ways to better enforce various rule violations.
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think a solution that effects the bottom line will be considered. If drafting is penalized to the letter of the rule, there would be lots of irate customers.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting. The racers obviously don't have the ethics or they have the attitude- every one else is doing it- so it makes it okay, or they want to get into Kona, or ???
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, my solution would be to reduce the field to 1800 and jack up entry fees by the same proportion. Let's face it, people will may 30-50% more if it means a more fair race.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting Jim. One suggestion, I'd love to see the penalties stay as is, but make it so that you can't get a Kona spot if you get a drafting penalty. I suspect that Kona slots are big part of the problem, people get sucked into drafting because for many if you don't draft, you don't qualify.

And while I'm at it I wonder if anyone will post a lisdt of Kona Qualifier who got drafting penalties, I suspect more than a few.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I am with Dev on this. Time penalties are no penalties. Make a person run a lap and really put the hurt on them before they go out and run the marathon. THAT is a penalty.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I respect the hell out of your views, cus you have alot of knowledge and experience, and my views werent ever to say they couldnt work. Just more or less show both sides of the arguement.


My only concern with that is this: Will WTC take a chance on changing the format like that? Would they take the chance that they may or may not sell out. What happens if they only sell 85% of capacity? Thats a lose of revenue, and that's the concern I see it. I dont see how a business will take a chance, especially when they have the gravy train already established. Now if WTC was faltering each year with selling out, I could see WTC wanting to make a change. But they are selling out in a matter of hours, and I'm not sure they go away from that.

Let's face it, it is all a business. So the only gurantee way to get that idea passed is to go to WTC with 1800 people's checks to show guranteed money to WTC. But because of the "chance" that you may not be able to get 1800 people's money, I just dont see WTC going for something like that.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Jimmy, while we understand you were conned into the job, the way it is perceived, is that you are the CEO of rule enforcement. Rightly or wrongly the situation at hand at races, ends up being connected to you, even though you have no say in the rules and at times have limited enforcement resources. Its

We the athletes who want a clean race, working with the likes of you can make a difference. See my solution above for laps of shame....1 mile for first offence out of T2 before you can start the run, second offence 3 miles. For most they are looking at 8-40 minutes right out of the gate PLUS shredding their legs BEFORE starting the run.

The current problem is that the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent.

And for those who don't drop back when passed and immediately accelerate to try and repass and try to ride away from peletons, you are only making the problem worse. The moment you jack it up to 350W, the guy following you can keep up doing 20% or more less. You pull for 30 seconds and notice you can't drop anyone and the peleton just had a 350W pull with everyone sitting in at 250, 220, 170, 150W. Next the honest guy at the back thinks he can blow by the peleton and does a pull at 350W....guess what, the rest of the peleton can keep up. Suddenly the front of the peleton is moving at 350+W while the back is only using 150W. You get the picture. The front of the peleton is moving at an obsenely fast pace as each successive guy does an unsuccessful pull. Each person that tries to surge and drop the peleton is making the problem worse.

If a stronger rider pulls up to you, don't jack up your pace to pass him. You are required to drop back 5 lengths and you'll see that if I guy is riding 250W and you're only doing 220, no way you are passing this guy. You might do some cat and mouse of a few miles and blow your race, but let the stronger guy go. If you don't let the stronger guy go, you now have the start of the formation of a peleton.

If everyone would just drop back 5 lengths when passed, then the guy in the front is doing his real IM or half IM race pace, the the line up of guys riding equally spaced 5 lengths back each are doing their race effort.

For a sample, see the videos of the Kona pro race. I nice legally spaced line up of guys going at a steady pace.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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gholmes, I didnt read every reply sorry but it seems to me from what the riders are doing you are coming up on an aid station. People are slowing and taking out bottles some are staying at full speed which makes it bunch. Do you have video of a big pace group riding full out and not just coasting and bunched before an aid station.

(I didnt do the race, it just seems like a skewed piece of video if this is all you are showing)
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It seems that over the years the number of athletes allowed on a given course goes up--whether the course can handle it or not. I recall hearing at the start of IMC one year the announcer boasting about it being the largest mass swim start in all of ironman history. (greaat)

This is huge money, I get that. But why do they need to keep increasing the profit by increasing the entry fee and/or increasing the participants? I see this largely as a management issue--or we would be talking about other IM courses being just as bad. I don't see that IMFL racers are any different than other IM racers.... it just happens to be the course layout & terrain, the number of racers, management factors, and a few bad apples (and some that just happened to be in the wrong spot).

I think they could create change and alleviate the problem if they wanted to.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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My take is that if they jack up Clearwater to $500 vs $300 it still sells out...same for Ironman Florida. Then they can implement a plan with fewer participants and less drafting. When you are spending $600 for hotels, the same on airfare, probably 4x that in equipment, then there is money spent on nutrition and perhaps coaching, well, when you add it all up $200-$300 increase in fee will not kill anyone.

It's like golfing a round at pebble beach for $450 and paying $400 for the hotel and $200 on breakfast and dinner. You don't do it every weekend, you likely don't even do it once a year. When you're putting out that much a few hundred is in the noise.

I realize that this sucks if you are tight for finances, but the sport is already pretty expensive, but in my view cheaper than downhill skiing or golf and if you look at the demographic in the 30-54 age bracket that makes up the bulk of triathlon, it is pretty well the same thing as downhill skiing. Money in the end is not an issue. Guys will open the wallet for the sport and for the lifestyle.

That being said, I can BET YOU that the local communities in Panama City or Clearwater want MORE athletes not less....cause it means more hotel nites and meals in restaurants.

Dev
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