It really does make you wonder when some of the fastest guys seem to be doing everything "wrong". I'm under the impression that the Europeans are going in a different direction. I'm noticing that a lot of them are on drop bars, shallow angles and it is to my understanding that 650c wheels are dying out over there. This approach sure doesn't seem to be slowing them down!

It's because those Germans are crazy!

More seriously, and I am far from qualified, I'd think it's two things. First, they likely started ot as road racers and are simply comfortable with that geometry. Second, they are so bloody strong that it just doesn't "matter." Though given the way some of them (Stadler) tend to fade toward the end, maybe they want to look inmto a better fit. Of course, Hell man is always up there, so for him I guess it's just stick with what you know.

---

---

"To give less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." - Pre

MattMizenko.com

Hellriegel has historically been used as an example of a rider using Steep geometry...

---

http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"

I think of VanLierde smoking the field on his TCR at Hawaii in 1999 or Botero beating Lance in the TDF TT last year. It probably does have something to do with road racing. Bicycle racing is the second biggest sport in Europe, sandwiched between soccer and Formula One. This must have something to do with it.

   I believe Hell Drive's 2002 IMH bike choice has been addressed before on this forum. We concluded it was a version of the Multisport 3000 model, one of Cannondale's European only models. As for the gravitation away from 650 I think that is an erroneous assumption to say that 650 seems to be dying out. It has much more to do with how and where europeans race, than a simple lack of taste for 650. By and large, most triathletes only own one bike. That being the case, consider that european culture uses the bike as transportation much more than we do. Lets face it, a steep seat angled 650 tri-bike is not as comfortable in that application. American triathletes, on the other hand, are probably only riding their bike for training and races. With that culture in place the europeans are likely naturally more inclined to stay w/700c since not many road bikes are made 650c. Also look at the size of the athletes moving back to 700c. They are all taller athletes. The current trend for 650/700 seems to be that 53cm and smaller are 650, 55 and larger work better as 700c. the 53-55cm range seems to be the crossover with many companies offering both wheel sizes in those frame sizes. Its simply a case of the pendulum finally coming back to the middle of the range after years of trial and error. Tri started on 700c road bikes. Then Dan and others ushered in the 650/steep seat angle idea. So then ALL tri-bikes were 650c. You have to admit, a 62cm 650c bike looks and probably handles a bit awkward when compared to a 700c version. But now, bike companies, shops, and customers seem to have settled in the middle by actually focussing on the fit and subsequent handling of the resulting bike. We're a more informed community than we were 10-15 years ago. We're seeing bikes and bike choices that make sense given appropriate consideration of the factors involved (though the not infrequent bonehead purchases certainly exist), rather than buying into the bandwagon (Carbonmania aside).

just for the record:

Neither Hellriegel, Zäck, Stadler nor Leder were former roadracers before their triathlon career, allthough Leder does a lot of roadracing nowadays.

Hellriegel is not a big guy (regarding the choice between 700 and 650C)



Europeans have a lot of bikes because they use them for all purposes. The pros do not take their racebike for shopping!



Regards



Martin

An interesting theory.

However, I'm specifically trying to understand why Cannondale's athletes aren't riding Aero Forks from C-dale or Aero Tubed Frames from C-dale. This is further complicated by the fact that Hellriegel and many other pros are choosing to ride drop bars...

Besides, I don't think Hell Drive is limited to 1 bike.

All their choices seem to contradict the standard views espoused by Dan, Tom, and the Gang. Don't take this as me "calling anyone out." I'm simply trying to understand (particularly in light of the fact that I've got a C-dale MS2000 Frame/Fork enroute).

---

http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"

it is a good question, puskas. maybe the answer is a simple one and is something like weight ? that, and perhaps being less than convinced of the benefits of a flattened/airfoil cross section down tube on a bike with a pedalling rider aboard in gusty winds? just guessing.

I'll grant that the pros don't use their tri-bike for shopping. I never intended to imply that. But they do come from a different culture regarding bikes, as others have noted. Take a look at any recent euro mag like, say 220 Triathlon and you'll see many more people riding road geo bikes in their race photos than you will in the american publications.

The other takeaway from my first post is that I'm speaking VERY generalistically. There will always be plenty of exceptions when one does that. Hellriegel is certainly one. That's the risk one takes when making generalizations. That said, I did stray somewhat from the original question but I'm bothered by the errant assumption that 650 is somehow dying based on observations that certain pros are switching "back" to 700....

Actually I believe that different scientific knowledge has impact on the pros desicions. In Europe we have somewhat other result regarding aerodynamics and powerfull positioning than you Americans. It is interesting to see your results from the windtunnels and compare them to the results from german scientist´s. You recommend deep rims - the germans say they have no impact on the aerodynamic of a rotating whell what so ever! And they proof it by sending a professionel rider around in the velodrom at constant 45 km/h using a SRM-crankset and HR-monitor to ensure a constant power output and relate it to the ridden distance. The results are completly different from tests on fixed wheels in the windtunnel. The comparison of aeroframes and normal roundtube frames showed no significant improvement at 45 km/h.

One must asume Hellriegel & co. to look at the german data and make their own considerations depending on this.



Regards



Martin

Statistician: A man who believes figures don't lie, but admits that under analysis some of them won't stand up either. Evan Esar

Hellriegel could beat me on a tricycle. It's not about the bike.

Fascinating. Thanks for the info.

I phoned Cannondale to clarify this issue but they were so busy I may not hear back from them for a day. My guess is Hellriegel wanted geometry that wasn't available in the stock sizes. I'll update you guys if I hear more. I am a big Hellriegel fan so I am interested. I can tell you I have a last year's MS5000 and this bike absolutely rules. I have four new bikes coming and I am not getting rid of this one. It's too cool.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Interesting information, kreutzer. It gets toward ideas I'm floating on another thread regarding aero...hmmm...maybe I need to brush up my german reading skills.

Very interested to hear what the euros are doing into aero studies. Seems mostly everyone in America "listens" to John Cobb and his studies in the windtunnel. I for one would like to find/read anything that the euros are doing in this area. Who do the Germans, for example, get their aerodynamic data from? I'm sure its not Cobb. Anyone know of a web page (in english) with some info?

"One must asume Hellriegel & co. to look at the german data and make their own considerations depending on this."

Martin, do you know if this study is published on the net. I speak a little bit of German, but also know someone who could translate it for us.

i think the idea of doing your aero equipment testing on a velodrome is great, and i've been wanting to do that for years. maybe someday i'll get around to it. but trying to use an SRM and/or HRM with it won't work. just a clock and perceived exertion would be fine.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, I'm curious, why just a clock and PE? After all PE is very subjective and does not always corollate with actual power applied. The more measurements one has in place, the more one can reduce variance between tests. I understand if you are saying that the only worthwhile statistic is time. I agree, but you have to reduce all the other variables except the one you're testing (different forks, for instance) to zero before it makes any sense. One of those variables is actual power applied. If I apply 200 watts this to one ride and 205 to another, the time vs variable(fork? wheelset? etc.) comparison is invalid. That's what I've said earlier today. No two different tests of similar products hold the extraneous variables to 0 and therefore the tests aren't comparable in any intelligent way.

just thinking aloud but could the bike choices of the Euro Pros just be a result of the prevalence of ITU draft legal races in Europe and the attendant bike equipment rules?

---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"

Well, let me see what I can find out. But now it´s time for bed, so I have to get back to you tommorow.



Martin

TriBri, 220 is an English magazine not european (we're touchy about things like that, it's like calling you a Cannuck!) where the concentration is mostly on Olympic racing and because of the size of our island most bike courses are technical, which makes bar end mounted gears and tri geometry a little unwieldy.

Julian in England.

---

"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

      You've certainly shot some holes in a lot of the beliefs posted on this sight. It reminds of a conversation I had with a formally eastern European now Californian frame builder who's bicycles are now getting some attention around here. I called to ask about his top of the line frame compared to another very popular aero frame. What he said pretty much was "Jim, if you rode an original QR Kilo, you know that round tube bicycles are very fast. Aero tubes are great selling points but only make the bicycle less comfortable without making it faster!" This twenty minute conversation taught me more about the bicycle business than I could have learned anywhere else.

Can you steer us toward any more information to back up these claims?

---

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Yeah, I really opened myself up for that one! Sorry.

"You've certainly shot some holes in a lot of the beliefs posted on this sight."

For sure. Almost like finding out that your religious beliefs are invalid.