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Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects?
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Ok, so its hot as balls in Texas right now (probably other places too, but I'm being selfish today). I've been training in the heat all summer: long runs at lunch, FTP and Long Tempo rides in the afternoons. I really don't pay much heed to the temperature. I kinda run by heart rate, RPE, and pace---and just adjust for the situation. The bike has been mostly unaffected, there has been enough cooling from moving through the air...that I rarely feel the heat.

...Until yesterday...

Yesterday the heat index crossed into the 10x range, it was 101F and 33%rh. So, the heat index was in the 105F range. It was also my threshold bike day. I knew it was "hot", but I didn't look up a heat index before I headed out. I did shift my start time by about 30 minutes, as a nod to the heat, but no other considerations before heading out. The results were not what I expected.

The prescription was 2x20 @95% IF. The first 20 went as expected until about the last 5 minutes, where my RPE really began to climb---more like I was working at 105%. After 3 minutes rest, the second 20 minutes was as you might expect: pretty much picking up where I left off with an abnormally high RPE. I seriously considered bailing at the 10m, 15m, and 18m marks. So, it was a bit of a sufferfest.
I do these every Tuesday. Last week it was 2x20 @ 90%IF. My remarks at the time were that it seems really easy, more like a tempo workout. I could have held the power "indefinately". Ath the end if the first 20, I did 30s at 115%. At the end of the second 20, I spend the last 3 minutes at 110% IF, because I was feeling frisky, and I wante to see how that felt. Last week the temperature was 85F / 50%rh, for a heat index of 90F.

So, now I'm looking at the data for the two rides. Specifically, my HR response to the step changes in power.


Code
   
Time 10-July 17-July IF
WU 128 134 60%
T0 127 135 90/95%
2m 146 152 90/95%
4m 147 155 90/95%
6m 145 157 90/95%
8m 146 157 90/95%
10m 145 160 90/95%
12m 144 162 90/95%
14m 144 162 90/95%
16m 146 163 90/95%
18m 147 163 90/95%
20m 145 163 90/95%



My VI was <1.01 (1 watt difference between NP & AP) for both intervals on both rides.

ETA: I do not have HR displayed on my 920xt during these intervals. I have power, cadence, speed, and interval time-remaining. I could switch screens, but I never do. So, HR is only viewed in post-analysis. I just ride the power, and note the RPE.

Note that last week my HR stabilized within 120s of start. Yesterday, besides starting 6bpm highter, it continued climbing through the 10-12m mark, and reached a terminus 15-18 bpm up.

The other interesting observation was during the 3m rest interval. 10-July my HR stabilized at 131bpm within 45s. 17-July HR fell linearly (like ruler-straight) at 8bpm / minute...just reaching 137bpm at the start of the second interval. In both cases, the second interval shoes a much more rapid return to steady-state with a terminal HR 1-2bpm higher than #1.

So, my questions:
1. Is my theory that this is heat induced, correct? Ie, my body just couldn't move the heat out quickly enough so HR continued to elevate, and stayed high in recovery?
2. Besides the immediate risks of heat related illnesses, are there training stress / fatigue effects from such events (I'm assuming so, since my legs feel like shit today)? Assuming so, what are they? Can they be mitigated (other than the obviuous---don't do that)?
3. What is the impact on training effects of either training at prescribed, or reducing the power-target to a more appropriate RPE?

I'm already working to rejig my schedule to avoid doing these (and other critical workouts) in the heat in the future.

ETA2: My training leading into these two events was nearly identical. Arguably, I was "more rested" going into yesterday, than last week. My bike TSB was +1 for both weeks, run TSB was -12 for both weeks. I'm in a swim/run block at the moment, so I'm just "holding serve" on the bike.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jul 18, 18 8:58
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Similar situation here in Dubai, temperature in the high 30s (=high 90s or low 100s) even before dawn and after sunset, plus >50% humidity. Bike is generally OK, but there have been a couple of days when I've struggled and had to take it down a notch. Running is just all easy at the moment, any intensity I have to do on the treadmill.

To your questions:
1) Yes, almost certainly. In these conditions my HR is anything up to 20bpm higher than normal for any given pace/intensity. And once it's gone high it's hard to get it down with anything short of stopping and sitting in the shade with cold water. Can recover it on cycling if I'm on a group ride or descent, can't recover it on running unless I stop or walk
2) I've found I can recover from the sessions OK as long as I'm not going too deep. Trust your RPE more than anything else. The one time I ignored RPE and HR was trying to stick with a fast group ride in strong headwinds on a particularly humid day, buried myself hanging on and regretted it. Later turned out that everybody had misjudged, we were all in pieces trying to keep up with each other and nobody had the sense to take control and take the whole thing down a notch! Getting lots of fluids and using hydration tablets is key, when I'm sweating this much water on it's own simply isn't enough.
3) I suspect that if you're having to go slower or reduce power based on your RPE, then the training effect is also diminished. But it's a trade-off between getting outside vs doing all your training inside, which would drive me nuts. Also depends what conditions you'll be racing in, I'm definitely acclimatising to the conditions and coping better, so if you're racing in hot and humid conditions then it's good training. Mind you, race season her is during the winter, so I don't have to worry too much if training effect is impacted as next race is 3 months away.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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thanks.

That's a really good point on hydration. I'm pretty anal about it, as well, for obvious reasons. I weight myself before/after. So, I know how much I generally need. I typically take two bottles on this ride, and drink 1ish (based on thirst). During the 90 minutes following that approach, I usually finish about even maybe down a pound. Yesterday, I drank the full 2 bottles, and was still down 3 lbs---but, could not have consumed more.

My races are in September and October. It could still be pretty warm (80s-90s) in September, but October will be cool (60s-70s).
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jul 18, 18 9:23
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I'm the same with the weighing! I've been sweating about 2-3 litres/hour on the run, closer to 2 on the bike. I can drink 2 bottles/hour on the bike which is just about enough to stay abreast of it for up to 2-3 hour rides. Can't take on that much fluid on the run so I'm limiting my runs to an hour or so, drinking one bottle and still losing 1-2kg (2-4 pounds).
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Oh it is like that in Florida right now. 100's heat index with 70% humidity.

Ive come to realize that speed just wont happen outside. The perceived effort of an 8 minute mile is like what a 6:45 feels like at 60 degrees. I attempted to run treadmill indoors but due to no wind, I overheat just as fast. So basically I just accept I can't do anything with speed haha

Even bike on the trainer outside in the evenings is 90+ heat index and is absolutely brutal.

Good news though - when people complain about how some race is going to be "hot" and brutal but it is actually like 75 degrees - I chuckle because 75 is not hot in my book. That is a cool autumn morning :-)
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly why heart rate training has value. If I could tell you how many times I've read race reports after disastrous runs following rides that "I held my power numbers" in heat that was higher than norm. "I don't know what happened", is the usual response. No surprise.....listen to how your BODY is reacting; not how close to numbers you are.....
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Oh it is like that in Florida right now. 100's heat index with 70% humidity.

Ive come to realize that speed just wont happen outside. The perceived effort of an 8 minute mile is like what a 6:45 feels like at 60 degrees. I attempted to run treadmill indoors but due to no wind, I overheat just as fast. So basically I just accept I can't do anything with speed haha

Even bike on the trainer outside in the evenings is 90+ heat index and is absolutely brutal.

Good news though - when people complain about how some race is going to be "hot" and brutal but it is actually like 75 degrees - I chuckle because 75 is not hot in my book. That is a cool autumn morning :-)


^^^This is exactly what happened to me at Raleigh 70.3. The heat and humidity destroyed me over the last few miles of the run.^^^

*Because of this I have been making it a point to run in the heat and humidity as much as I can.


Have you considered using one of these on the trainer and treadmill?

COSTWAY High Velocity Fan 20-Inch 3-Speed Metal Commercial Industrial Grade 360° Floor Fan, Black (20")

My wife and I use one...it is a game changer.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
Have you considered using one of these on the trainer and treadmill?

COSTWAY High Velocity Fan 20-Inch 3-Speed Metal Commercial Industrial Grade 360° Floor Fan, Black (20")

My wife and I use one...it is a game changer.

Agreed. We have one, too. We use to have several of those stupid vornado fans. Silly things, to paraphrase..."That's not a fan, ^^^THIS is a FAN!"
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I live in TX also and race TT's in the heat. Heat here (with the high humidity) is a huge physical stress. When it gets like this, I generally factor in reducing effort by 6-8% (I go by watts). You might try splitting workouts, morning then afternoons.
For races, slushies sipped thru a straw right before the race are best. Also ice socks down the back and in the tail of your helmet work great. Use cut up panty hose to make the socks. The ice lasts about 25 minutes. If all else fails, get a Wahoo.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I live in Georgia and simply put, you are going to go slower in the summer time in brutally hot/humid climates. I tend to pay attention to temperature and dew point. When the combined temp/dp is above 145 degrees, it'll definitely start affecting your workouts. I had a similar experience as you just a week ago. I left for my ride a little bit later than I wanted and didn't realize how hot things had gotten. Hit the first twenty minute interval at normal power levels and bonked in spectacular fashion on the second interval. If it's over 150 degree combined temp/dp, I don't think it's unreasonable to adjust power/pace down by a factor of 5-10%.

As others have mentioned, it obviously sucks for day-to-day training because you aren't hitting what you think you should be, but on the flip side, you'll perform WAY better at races in hot/humid conditions compared to your competition. Alternatively, you'll over-perform compared to where you are at if you travel to a milder climate or you're fitness gains will be huge when the temps cool off in the fall!
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [jbailey500] [ In reply to ]
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jbailey500 wrote:
. If it's over 150 degree combined temp/dp, I don't think it's unreasonable to adjust power/pace down by a factor of 5-10%.

Yeah well, on Tuesday, it was 101+65, I think. I'm still feeling the effects in my legs. The combined effects of heat + high watts seems to require too much recovery. I'm going to figure out how to move the threshold work to mornings---I'd rather hit the watts, and not suffer the downstream effects (it really impacts my swim badly). I get plenty of other heat acclimation.

jbailey500 wrote:
As others have mentioned, it obviously sucks for day-to-day training because you aren't hitting what you think you should be, but on the flip side, you'll perform WAY better at races in hot/humid conditions compared to your competition. Alternatively, you'll over-perform compared to where you are at if you travel to a milder climate or you're fitness gains will be huge when the temps cool off in the fall!

Yeah, I noticed that the other day. I did a treadmill run because I was busy during the daylight. I've been slogging through runs in the heat for months. Its been ages since I ran on the treadmill (or even cool temps). It felt so easy and my HR was SOOOO low, I just kept increasing the pace. In the end, I ended up with an average pace that was 80s/mile better than my outdoor heated runs; and, my best mile was 2min/mile faster than outdoors. I know there is a treadmill effect (they are always faster than outside), so I went back and compared to other treadmill runs. It was my fastest treadmill pace in the last 2 years by 3s (including A-race week last fall) for a 4+ mile run. I was really quite shocked as I kept hitting the up button on the TM.

I'll be in Colorado for vacation in a couple weeks. Should be interesting to see how that goes. Last year, it was a 45s/mile boost.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:

1) Yes, almost certainly. In these conditions my HR is anything up to 20bpm higher than normal for any given pace/intensity. And once it's gone high it's hard to get it down with anything short of stopping and sitting in the shade with cold water. Can recover it on cycling if I'm on a group ride or descent, can't recover it on running unless I stop or walk
2) I've found I can recover from the sessions OK as long as I'm not going too deep. Trust your RPE more than anything else. The one time I ignored RPE and HR was trying to stick with a fast group ride in strong headwinds on a particularly humid day, buried myself hanging on and regretted it. Later turned out that everybody had misjudged, we were all in pieces trying to keep up with each other and nobody had the sense to take control and take the whole thing down a notch! Getting lots of fluids and using hydration tablets is key, when I'm sweating this much water on it's own simply isn't enough.
3) I suspect that if you're having to go slower or reduce power based on your RPE, then the training effect is also diminished. But it's a trade-off between getting outside vs doing all your training inside, which would drive me nuts. Also depends what conditions you'll be racing in, I'm definitely acclimatising to the conditions and coping better, so if you're racing in hot and humid conditions then it's good training. Mind you, race season her is during the winter, so I don't have to worry too much if training effect is impacted as next race is 3 months away.


I'll echo a lot of what is said here.

One thing to keep in mind is that your body, most likely, goes through anticipatory regulation. This is a bit debated, but there is evidence supporting the fact that it's not getting too hot that slows your down, it's the rate that you temperature is increasing that causes you to slow down to avoid getting too hot.

Research Link
Layman Link

This is a very complex topic, but this particular idea is one that I think has a lot of merit.

Anything that you can do to lower your core temperature prior to the workout, slowing it's rise during the workout OR tricking your perception will be beneficial.
Specifically, consuming a "slushie" prior is effective, as is pouring water, drinking cold liquids during etc etc.

With that said, I just returned from a trip looking specifically at what I can do with clothing to benefit riders in the heat.
They're only smiling because this was the first trial...



I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
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The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
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Last edited by: xtrpickels: Jul 19, 18 9:58
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:


I'll echo a lot of what is said here.

One thing to keep in mind is that your body, most likely, goes through anticipatory regulation. This is a bit debated, but there is evidence supporting the fact that it's not getting too hot that slows your down, it's the rate that you temperature is increasing that causes you to slow down to avoid getting too hot.

Research Link
Layman Link

This is a very complex topic, but this particular idea is one that I think has a lot of merit.

Anything that you can do to lower your core temperature prior to the workout, slowing it's rise during the workout OR tricking your perception will be beneficial.
Specifically, consuming a "slushie" prior is effective, as is pouring water, drinking cold liquids during etc etc.

With that said, I just returned from a trip looking specifically at what I can do with clothing to benefit riders in the heat.
They're only smiling because this was the first trial...


Interesting. Haven't read the entire thing, yet.

Can you clarify the expected impacts on recovery? As noted, I pushed on through and completed the workout as prescribed even though I really, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wanted to quit. You know...where you are counting telephone poles, and mailboxes to get through. I'm still feeling the effects 42 hours later...with only a single swim and a short run in the intervening time. Compared to the same workout the week prior which had almost the same TSS (94 vs. 97).

Is session-RPE (trimps, or what-have-you) the best indicator of total stress (TSS + "other" factors) and therefore recovery time?
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jul 19, 18 10:19
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
Anything that you can do to lower your core temperature prior to the workout, slowing it's rise during the workout OR tricking your perception will be beneficial.
Specifically, consuming a "slushie" prior is effective, as is pouring water, drinking cold liquids during etc etc.

Running in Texas squirting a little water on my head every now and again seems to work (likely perception)

A hair cut really helps, i'll generally let it grow for a month then go get a 'race cut', the next few runs are a whole lot easier (even if I didn't use the cut for a race)
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:

A hair cut really helps, i'll generally let it grow for a month then go get a 'race cut', the next few runs are a whole lot easier (even if I didn't use the cut for a race)

As long as I remember to put sunscreen on that newly exposed scalp. Otherwise, its only the first run (and not the NEXT FEW).
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I live in the Dallas area and just wanted to say kudos for even attempting 2x20s in this heat. That or you should have your head checked.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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All I can say is that my personal heat index must be off. I didn't really think it was that hot. Today on the other hand....kinda stupid.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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There is a way to keep your skin consistently 15-25 d [F] cooler while your riding. Creating this thermal gap between core temp [as reflected in the blood temp flowing thru your skin] is huge in accelerating the loss of heat. Not only can it generate a 3-5 x increase in rate of heat exchange, the perceived reduction in heat index is enormous. It's also designed to last as long as your ride.

It's based on the simple physics of evaporation and windchill effect. The faster you go the cooler you'll feel. In fact in a study we did we were able to document a statistically significant decrease in the rate of dehydration. You're basically "outsourcing" your sweat.

Good discussion.

David
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Spruzza] [ In reply to ]
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Huh? It sounds like you are advertising a product, but you don't mention the product.

You didn't post "the way".

You didn't post a link to your "study".
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Trying not to "advertise" a product. Just focusing on a solution and the science behind it. I've found that in these types of discussions there is a LOT of talk about the problem "brutal, stressful, unbearable, dangerous" etc but the solutions typically fall into three categories:
1. Avoid the heat
2. Get used to the heat - AKA acclimate
3. Deal with the consequences - hydration and electrolyte replacement.
Don't get me wrong these are all very important. Our suggestion is simply why not actually "beat the heat" by keeping your skin consistently 15-25 degrees cooler?

Think about driving your car without A/C. Same car, same trip but in hot weather it would be an entirely different experience.

My purpose for posting is not to sell anything. I'm trying to address the physiology, the physics, a solution and perhaps a new paradigm.

I respect the purity of the slowtwitch forum.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Spruzza] [ In reply to ]
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<------immediately headed to Home Depot to pick up a 1 gallon pressurized sprayer and a Mr. Mist-er.
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Re: Heat Indeices of 100+ - physiological effects? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Yes we have "competitors" :) see attached image.
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