Recently came across this article and was surprised no one had commented on it on Slowtwitch.
http://teamemj.com/...world-championships/
http://teamemj.com/...world-championships/
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Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
I would be pissed if Kona moves to wave starts. Yes I have been caught up in the draft drama a few times unable to get around the massive peloton until the climb to Hawi but mass starts is one of the best things of an Ironman still left in some races. The Kona swim is an amazing experience until it thins out for me maybe halfway to the turn.
The drafting yes they need to sort and yes maybe more trained marshals as the years I have been caught up in the peloton there isn't a bike in site. I think they are afraid don't want to deal with so many people. The draft busters should be empowered and at least start busting people for blocking as the lane is full and there is no way to get around without crossing the middle line.
The only bonus is the people that are getting podiums are generally up the road so if you want to argue about what time you did or where you finished outside the best then so be it. The draft fest is generally only just short of Waikaloa to the start of the climb to Hawi so maybe 30km. The rest of the race should be able to be marshalled and generally is a lot more adequately.
The drafting yes they need to sort and yes maybe more trained marshals as the years I have been caught up in the peloton there isn't a bike in site. I think they are afraid don't want to deal with so many people. The draft busters should be empowered and at least start busting people for blocking as the lane is full and there is no way to get around without crossing the middle line.
The only bonus is the people that are getting podiums are generally up the road so if you want to argue about what time you did or where you finished outside the best then so be it. The draft fest is generally only just short of Waikaloa to the start of the climb to Hawi so maybe 30km. The rest of the race should be able to be marshalled and generally is a lot more adequately.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
If I ever do KQ, I'd quite possibly not even go because of this. I raced Nationals once and realized it's not that fun because everybody is the exact same speed as you. It ends up being a fight the whole swim, trying to not draft the whole bike, and then silently bumping elbows with unfriendlies the whole run.
Kona has become something that qualifying for has become a huge honor that you can talk about the rest of your life. But nobody ever actually asks how you did at the race. Save your money and buy a new bike instead.
Kona has become something that qualifying for has become a huge honor that you can talk about the rest of your life. But nobody ever actually asks how you did at the race. Save your money and buy a new bike instead.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
I agree with this. I think they should limit the field more too... like not having roll downs go too far. Maybe 2 or 3 slots but then if you didn’t make the cut, you didn’t make it and not just fill up the course for the sake of it, less people and wave starts still gives some mass start field but it is a world champs to be fair so should be for the top racers, and then still have legacy and wild cards as per the original thoughts if the Ironman creators that anyone could potentially race there even if top of the field. If EMJ has done the maths and has the data then it should be seriously considered as a legitimate option.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
I hear what they’re trying to say but for the love of god they really should have gotten someone to proof read that.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/4391866
https://www.strava.com/athletes/4391866
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [Shambolic]
[ In reply to ]
I think a better wave start would be
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
Sounds like a good plan to me.
-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
With all these people not wanting to go for this reason....
YES! more spots for the rest of us!
I don’t care. Let them play the music. I’ll do the dance.
YES! more spots for the rest of us!
I don’t care. Let them play the music. I’ll do the dance.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
desert dude wrote:
I think a better wave start would be MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
If you put the 39 and under last, then in theory, they have to battle the wind both ways, resulting in them splitting up a bit more too given this group has the biggest swim+bike parity.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
desert dude wrote:
I think a better wave start would be MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
I like this idea. Now that I'm racing W60-64, nothing makes me closer to homicidal towards the Race Director than getting to an aid station that has no water. Let the youngsters deal with that and see how they like it...
DFL > DNF > DNS
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
desert dude wrote:
I think a better wave start would be MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
Surely there's a simpler answer to the stocking of aid stations that doesn't involve wave starts. It seems like this method of putting the slowest first, followed by the fastest is going to lead to MORE congestion in water and more people into T1 at the same time.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
These two plans seem a bit dangerous to me. As a female athlete that has started 15 minutes behind AG men for the past three years in Kona, I quickly run into a lot of athletes/swim traffic before the turnaround, and I'm not even a good swimmer (1:08-1:10). Having a large pack of fast and competitive men swim through the preceding waves could create issues.
I've also competed at 70.3 Worlds in recent years, starting as the last very female wave, and as a strong cyclist, I find it dangerous to be passing so many slower athletes throughout the entirety of a bike course, which would be the case for the M40-55 or M18-39 athletes in the examples below.
I also heard of an accident yesterday at IM 70.3 Texas where an athlete (Sika Henry) was in a bike collision on a very crowded course after a late wave start.
As much as I don't like the rolling start for the lack of direct competition, it may be the best solution for a safe event... you could even seed athletes by their qualifying event so that self-seeding is not whimsical.
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
I've also competed at 70.3 Worlds in recent years, starting as the last very female wave, and as a strong cyclist, I find it dangerous to be passing so many slower athletes throughout the entirety of a bike course, which would be the case for the M40-55 or M18-39 athletes in the examples below.
I also heard of an accident yesterday at IM 70.3 Texas where an athlete (Sika Henry) was in a bike collision on a very crowded course after a late wave start.
As much as I don't like the rolling start for the lack of direct competition, it may be the best solution for a safe event... you could even seed athletes by their qualifying event so that self-seeding is not whimsical.
desert dude wrote:
I think a better wave start would be MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [ZenTriBrett]
[ In reply to ]
ZenTriBrett wrote:
Kona has become something that qualifying for has become a huge honor that you can talk about the rest of your life. But nobody ever actually asks how you did at the race. Save your money and buy a new bike instead.Otherwise I think EMJ has presented a realistic option to potentially ease the draft fest that is the first 40'sh miles of Kona.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [ZenTriBrett]
[ In reply to ]
ZenTriBrett wrote:
If I ever do KQ, I'd quite possibly not even go because of this. I raced Nationals once and realized it's not that fun because everybody is the exact same speed as you. It ends up being a fight the whole swim, trying to not draft the whole bike, and then silently bumping elbows with unfriendlies the whole run. Kona has become something that qualifying for has become a huge honor that you can talk about the rest of your life. But nobody ever actually asks how you did at the race. Save your money and buy a new bike instead.
Hahahahahah. You are a terrible liar if you think anyone believes this nonsense. You would take a KQ in a SECOND if it was on offer.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
2brokenhips wrote:
Recently came across this article and was surprised no one had commented on it on Slowtwitch. http://teamemj.com/...world-championships/
Coming from the masters. Every race that I have been where EMJ has more than a couple of its members is a team time trial. I know a few of them and they are all great guys but somehow someway they are always crazy close to each other on the bike.
News flash, you are never going to solve bunching up in kona. Wave starts are not going to do it and would ruin this race IMO. It is a fact of life when you have 2000 triathletes that are more or less the same ability on the same course. The only thing that seems to make a difference is the wind and lack of it this past year made it especially bad.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [1poseur1]
[ In reply to ]
1poseur1 wrote:
2brokenhips wrote:
Recently came across this article and was surprised no one had commented on it on Slowtwitch. http://teamemj.com/...world-championships/
Coming from the masters. Every race that I have been where EMJ has more than a couple of its members is a team time trial. I know a few of them and they are all great guys but somehow someway they are always crazy close to each other on the bike.
News flash, you are never going to solve bunching up in kona. Wave starts are not going to do it and would ruin this race IMO. It is a fact of life when you have 2000 triathletes that are more or less the same ability on the same course. The only thing that seems to make a difference is the wind and lack of it this past year made it especially bad.
Bingo! I'm all for one start; pro AND AG as in the past. One race; one start.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [ggeiger]
[ In reply to ]
ggeiger wrote:
1poseur1 wrote:
2brokenhips wrote:
Recently came across this article and was surprised no one had commented on it on Slowtwitch. http://teamemj.com/...world-championships/
Coming from the masters. Every race that I have been where EMJ has more than a couple of its members is a team time trial. I know a few of them and they are all great guys but somehow someway they are always crazy close to each other on the bike.
News flash, you are never going to solve bunching up in kona. Wave starts are not going to do it and would ruin this race IMO. It is a fact of life when you have 2000 triathletes that are more or less the same ability on the same course. The only thing that seems to make a difference is the wind and lack of it this past year made it especially bad.
Bingo! I'm all for one start; pro AND AG as in the past. One race; one start.
I will spend 90% of my training time swimming if they make the switch. Goal is to make the blue train and soft trot the run to 9 hrs. I support your idea just so pros can have a flavor of what this race is really like. They have it so easy not having to trade blows with 1500 other people for the first hour. Not to mention the hot lap when you are literally bouncing of others.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [sfjab]
[ In reply to ]
+1
I am a 36M and swim anywhere from 51-53 min. In races where they start 55+ in front of me it is like a mine field 15-20 minutes into the swim. I don't enjoy getting kicked in the face and the 55+ crowd doesn't enjoy me (accidentally, most of the time) swimming over them and halfway drowning them. Unless I'm sighting every stroke it's impossible to avoid collision and dangerous IMO.
I'm all for wave starts at Kona. Starting the most vulnerable crowd 15 minutes earlier isn't going to spare them from the elements on this course.
I've also competed at 70.3 Worlds in recent years, starting as the last very female wave, and as a strong cyclist, I find it dangerous to be passing so many slower athletes throughout the entirety of a bike course, which would be the case for the M40-55 or M18-39 athletes in the examples below.
I also heard of an accident yesterday at IM 70.3 Texas where an athlete (Sika Henry) was in a bike collision on a very crowded course after a late wave start.
As much as I don't like the rolling start for the lack of direct competition, it may be the best solution for a safe event... you could even seed athletes by their qualifying event so that self-seeding is not whimsical.
Strava
I am a 36M and swim anywhere from 51-53 min. In races where they start 55+ in front of me it is like a mine field 15-20 minutes into the swim. I don't enjoy getting kicked in the face and the 55+ crowd doesn't enjoy me (accidentally, most of the time) swimming over them and halfway drowning them. Unless I'm sighting every stroke it's impossible to avoid collision and dangerous IMO.
I'm all for wave starts at Kona. Starting the most vulnerable crowd 15 minutes earlier isn't going to spare them from the elements on this course.
sfjab wrote:
These two plans seem a bit dangerous to me. As a female athlete that has started 15 minutes behind AG men for the past three years in Kona, I quickly run into a lot of athletes/swim traffic before the turnaround, and I'm not even a good swimmer (1:08-1:10). Having a large pack of fast and competitive men swim through the preceding waves could create issues. I've also competed at 70.3 Worlds in recent years, starting as the last very female wave, and as a strong cyclist, I find it dangerous to be passing so many slower athletes throughout the entirety of a bike course, which would be the case for the M40-55 or M18-39 athletes in the examples below.
I also heard of an accident yesterday at IM 70.3 Texas where an athlete (Sika Henry) was in a bike collision on a very crowded course after a late wave start.
As much as I don't like the rolling start for the lack of direct competition, it may be the best solution for a safe event... you could even seed athletes by their qualifying event so that self-seeding is not whimsical.
Strava
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
desert dude wrote:
I think a better wave start would be MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later: everyone 55+
10min later M18-39
8 min later: the rest of the women
12min later M40-54
or
MPRO
WPRO
1-2min later everyone 55+
12min M40-54
6-8min rest of the women
12min M18-39
This gets the most vulnerable participants to the elements onto & hopefully off the bike course sooner while putting the fittest people (in theory) later. It also keeps the oldest participants from battling a headwind on the bike in both directions and helps insure that the oldest are not running into aid stations out of water late in the bike & run as often happens according to my age 60+ perennial KQers.
Where are they going to put the charity cases like legacy people?
They can solve this by introducing a category system in triathlon, like they have in cycling!
[Ducks for cover]
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [2brokenhips]
[ In reply to ]
I know we always talk about Kona when it comes to drafting...but some of these 70.3s are massive. Augusta had 3500 registrants, htf do you even breath?
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [mgreer]
[ In reply to ]
mgreer wrote:
Surely there's a simpler answer to the stocking of aid stations that doesn't involve wave starts.That just made me think of this video from Kona of absolute havok be wrecked on this aid station. I don't blame him for his methods, but I couldn't but laugh at the woman holding the water tray. https://imgur.com/a/bpYuGst
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [Rage KG]
[ In reply to ]
First time I've seen that. Is he really dumping coke on himself?!?!
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
sch340 wrote:
+1 I am a 36M and swim anywhere from 51-53 min. In races where they start 55+ in front of me it is like a mine field 15-20 minutes into the swim. I don't enjoy getting kicked in the face and the 55+ crowd doesn't enjoy me
I hate the first 10 minutes of IMTx when the swim is a battle. And I cannot imagine what it is like for a 1:05-1:30 swimmer who deals with this the entire swim. I think that is because we are wussies. Seriously. We rarely deal with congestion so we don't freaking like it.
What I was wondering: Kona. A lot more people swimming sub 55. Was it terrible the whole way?
Re: Hawaii Ironman wave starts [mgreer]
[ In reply to ]
mgreer wrote:
First time I've seen that. Is he really dumping coke on himself?!?!Look when you are in the lead you get special privileges(!) but he went through, 15 participants worth of supplies at that aid station.
This nonsense about Kona swim waves is about spacing out the bike leg. I agree the draft packs are insane (with many prominent AG teams participating in the offense), but that mass swim start is an awesome experience and must remain!