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Has the game changed? Team Tactics
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We’ve all been speculating that Lange had a domestique. Well Braden Currie just confirmed it.

Go to about 28:45

https://itunes.apple.com/...&i=1000421809477

Will this be commonplace going forward? What can IM do to address this as in my mind it violates the spirit of the sport. Should it be addressed?
Last edited by: Sean H: Oct 15, 18 9:21
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
We’ve all been speculating that Lange had a domestique. Well Braden Currie just conformed it.

Go to about 28:45

https://itunes.apple.com/...&i=1000421809477

Will this be commonplace going forward? What can IM do to address this as in my mind it violates the spirit of the sport. Should it be addressed?

I've feared that for a long time and I think the reality just raised it's head. Next year a pact with Amberger, Starky and Frodo to kill off Lange? They all swim well, and could be long gone on the way to a big gap.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Who was the domestique?
Did they get paid?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t have as big of a problem with people working together. They are still looking out for themselves first and foremost.

But a 20 meter draft zone would solve both issues.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
I don’t have as big of a problem with people working together. They are still looking out for themselves first and foremost.

But a 20 meter draft zone would solve both issues.

I do, but as you said, that would be a great help. That and a far bigger penalty.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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Dreitz
They have the same sponsor.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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It seems ok when the uber bikers get there train going in the last few years, this year the wheels fall off and everyone kicks up a fuss as the uber runner train pulls into town first!
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Is that "Kona Special 2018 Part 5" for those of us not using iTunes?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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I see it as an optics problem. Whether fair/unfair, rules were broken or not broken (I guess only Dreitz and Lange can truly answer that), it looks really bad when you have 2 guys in the same kit working/talking together. This was just "different" than 3 different non-"teammates" working together for the same cause. This was more in your face, straddling the "legality" of things.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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You don't need a domestique. You just need to suck wheel from Patrick's domestique. Make sure to tip the domestique at the end and thank him for the service.



Sean H wrote:
We’ve all been speculating that Lange had a domestique. Well Braden Currie just confirmed it.

Go to about 28:45

https://itunes.apple.com/...&i=1000421809477

Will this be commonplace going forward? What can IM do to address this as in my mind it violates the spirit of the sport. Should it be addressed?

What's your CdA?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sikedsyko] [ In reply to ]
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No, it’s Kona Special 2018 - The Finale
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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trailerhouse wrote:
You don't need a domestique. You just need to suck wheel from Patrick's domestique. Make sure to tip the domestique at the end and thank him for the service.



Sean H wrote:
We’ve all been speculating that Lange had a domestique. Well Braden Currie just confirmed it.

Go to about 28:45

https://itunes.apple.com/...&i=1000421809477

Will this be commonplace going forward? What can IM do to address this as in my mind it violates the spirit of the sport. Should it be addressed?

Why would you do that? Patrick is GOING to out run you.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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You cant come into T2 with Lange....you actually need your teammate to pull you through Lange/Dreitz and somehow hope to hell they dont just sit on you when you attack.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I would expect someone that gives up their race to benefit someone during one leg of a race to do far worse than 13th. IMO I don't see anything wrong with what happened yesterday.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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He is a good runner but there are plenty of guys who can run low 2:40 now and will take their chance to go with Lange out of T2. If shit goes wrong they can still hang on to a top 3-5. But yeah, if you need to win win then you need to come up with some barely legal tactics of your own :)


B_Doughtie wrote:
You cant come into T2 with Lange....you actually need your teammate to pull you through Lange/Dreitz and somehow hope to hell they dont just sit on you when you attack.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [derailleur'd] [ In reply to ]
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13th is way out of the money. The guy could have gone top 10 and collect a check if he didn't pull the group for the last 56mi... Who does that? .


derailleur'd wrote:
I would expect someone that gives up their race to benefit someone during one leg of a race to do far worse than 13th. IMO I don't see anything wrong with what happened yesterday.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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The more likelyhood is that these athletes can't go with any of the super bikers, and can't "break" Lange off their wheel. So in essence the "next" move will simply be for Lange to sit in on the "counter attacks". Which is likely far easier to do than actually breaking him off their wheel.

So then it comes back to who's going to out run Lange? This years run was beyond boring pretty much from mile 5 to the finish.


ETA: If you think he's a good runner and a bunch can outrun him, I'll just say the evidence over the last 3 years shows otherwise. So no coming in with Lange in T2 really isn't likely a good plan..It may have to be the plan because you can't break him, but it's not really a very settling plan for success.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 18 10:10
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I’m just going to chip my $0.02 in:

Organizing a group that forms spontaneously out of the swim like what TO did this year is fine. Premeditated “alliances” like what we saw with Drietz and Lange is not. A 20m draft zone would make both irrelevant. This should remain an individual sport.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't see anything that was blatant

drietz was biking in front of 5 riders for a long time.... spaced out... Lange was mostly far back from Drietz, as 4th or 5th rider, so if lange benefited he wasn't the only one

It wasnt like they were riding 2 man TT style, constant catapult passing and Drietz taking longer pulls

Was there more going on than that? I don't have iTunes account

If it is the case, I wonder how much compensation yiu would need to train and qualify only to give up a top 10 for someone else's ambition

Sean H wrote:
Dreitz
They have the same sponsor.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Dreitz
They have the same sponsor.

IIRC, when I used to officiate triathlon races, there was a rule where if you could determine two (or more) athlete's were deliberately working together on the bike that it was the same as drafting and could be penalized. Not the same as the "peloton"... but a concerted organized effort between certain individuals.

I saw two douchebags do this at a race years ago. They were from the same small town and trained together. They swapped places every couple minutes on the bike. I was sitting about 200m back and watched this go on for about 15km.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I see it as an optics problem. Whether fair/unfair, rules were broken or not broken (I guess only Dreitz and Lange can truly answer that), it looks really bad when you have 2 guys in the same kit working/talking together. This was just "different" than 3 different non-"teammates" working together for the same cause. This was more in your face, straddling the "legality" of things.

As you stated, only two people can answer that, and since if they admitted what they were really doing it would result in some really bad press at a minimum, they won't, I expect we'll see much more of this in the future. It's f****** depressing.

My 0.02: what Lange and Dreitz did was just another nail in the coffin to the integrity of a sport that is already rife with doping.

Anybody that spends time Road biking, or watching road races at high levels can recognize when two people are working together in a domestique / GC Contender relationship. That's exactly what it was on Saturday. It's disgusting.

Blatant doesn't begin to describe it.

All credit to his 2017 win, he earned that one with smart, solo racing, and guts.

Lange 2018 is a co champ with Drietz. He didn't earn it on his own. At a minimum his win and record deserve an asterisk.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't see anything that was blatant

-------

Read the pages on the 1st hour on the bike and even Slowman himself was talking about it. Now he was of the mindset that what they were doing was potentially different than LS/Chrabot did a few years ago. But it certainly raised some eyebrows as to the legality of it. Again only Dreitz and Lange can answer that in regards to the rules at play of giving up your race for someone else.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [derailleur'd] [ In reply to ]
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derailleur'd wrote:
I would expect someone that gives up their race to benefit someone during one leg of a race to do far worse than 13th. IMO I don't see anything wrong with what happened yesterday.

Then you didnt watch the entire bike segment, or don't understand bike tactics and how big a difference it makes.

Athletes doing individual races didn't stand a chance.

Sure, PL and Drietz say they weren't, but their actions on the road speak volumes.

I would have had so much more respect for langer and his accomplishment if he had done it like he did in 2017, but in this case, it's a f****** joke. He should be ashamed of himself. It's more embarrassing than that stupid Finish Line proposal.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:

Was there more going on than that? I don't have iTunes account

Dreitz pulled Lange (and consequently Currie) up to the Gomez group prior to going to the front of that group and setting tempo Sky style. Currie said that Lange was telling Dreitz when the pace was ok and he was still there and when to slow down or speed up.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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I think the perfect comparison is Ryf sitting up, composing herself, then just HAMMERING SOLO past a train of 8 other pro women vs Lange catching up to Drietz, exchanging a couple words, then sitting so close he was sniffing Dreitzes junk while Drietz hammered past 5 male athletes, only to sit in behind dreitz for the next 60 miles.

Watch the replay, compare and contrast. 1 is a triathlon, the other is a team time trial
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