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Hard races and safety.
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Given the interesting troll like threads about no wetsuits, fixed bikes or running barefoot, I am not going there.

Let's just get to the concept of whether or not hard races or easier races are safer. In other words, if a race is a hard race does that keep fools away.

For example, I hear of few deaths in long OW swims. Same with long bike events or long running events. They seem to be rare, why is that?

Is there something about a triathlon of almost any length that "provokes" people to think that "if they can make it through..." they'll finish? Are harder triathlons safer than supposedly easier ones if the weather becomes a problem? Would triathlons be "safer" if the swim distance was increased across the board to keep weaker swimmers from biting off too much?

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I'd go for a 10k swim for starters.

Not sureif it would make events any safer. It may cut iut the poorer swimmers, or may just push the problem further along the line (those who can swim 3.8k ok but not done enough to be comfortable or experienced at 10k.

I'd mainly like it to level the playing field re. swimmers vs bikers/ runners.

And more importantly its the only chance I'd have of putting a decent amount of time into my buddies who are better runners 😁
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
Given the interesting troll like threads about no wetsuits, fixed bikes or running barefoot, I am not going there.

Let's just get to the concept of whether or not hard races or easier races are safer. In other words, if a race is a hard race does that keep fools away.
Interesting. Are you thinking of making changes in the events you help put on?


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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i was surprised that wetsuit thread was so dysfunctional - there's a good point lurking there. at the very least, a much lower temp cutoff is in order, whatever the exact nature of the causality relating to swim deaths. i see athletes baking in the sun waiting for their start to swim in water where its not needed, myself included, and often wish it was a non-wetsuit swim. if we say its for 'safety' let them use a pull buoy.

as for harder being safer, its an interesting idea, but i fear casual participants may not be able to properly gauge the hardness in advance. and unlike the swim, its uncommon to unwittingly go out orders of magnitude too hard in other events, and, as has been discussed, water is unforgiving.

one idea i had was a leman's start. there's a winter multisport race i've done in quebec city which starts with having to run to your bikes. if you had to run 2k or so to the swim, i wonder if that might smooth out pacing, warm them up, self-seed, and perhaps help people recognize how they are feeling that day before they are in the water.

would also add a new factor to the "should i wear a full wetsuit" logic.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Our SwimRun NC race is very hard. But we do not allow just everyone to sign up.

It is not a race for beginners or slow folks. Basically if someone can’t run a road half marathon under 2 hours, a 70.3 under 6 hours or a full under 14 hours, then we reject the application. This is not about being elitist but it is about safety. Teams need to move fast to stay warm and not get hypothermia and the trails are very difficult.

We would rather not sell out than allow teams in that could be trouble.

Also it is not fair for volunteers to have to sit forever on the course because someone wants to walk the course.

And we have set very strict course cut off times .
Last edited by: Herbert: Jun 12, 19 5:37
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Re: Hard races and safety. [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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That's a good idea.

Also I assume you mean a 2 hour half marathon, right?

Strava
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Re: Hard races and safety. [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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Yes indeed. Not sure where the 6 came from.

There are plenty other options for folks who are slower. But clearly accidents can happen to anyone
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Re: Hard races and safety. [jt10000] [ In reply to ]
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jt10000 wrote:
IT wrote:
Given the interesting troll like threads about no wetsuits, fixed bikes or running barefoot, I am not going there.

Let's just get to the concept of whether or not hard races or easier races are safer. In other words, if a race is a hard race does that keep fools away.

Interesting. Are you thinking of making changes in the events you help put on?

I'm 64. Have created and directed several races in my 30-40s along with serving a year as a vp and a year as the president of a RRCA chapter in MN.

That I'm turned off to put on races for people with snarky replies is my own business.

This thread is about human nature and challenges.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:

For example, I hear of few deaths in long OW swims. Same with long bike events or long running events. They seem to be rare, why is that?

Off the top of my head, I remember deaths in multiple long distance cycling events and, of course, multiple deaths in marathons. Is the death rate actually lower in harder events or are there just less deaths because there are less participants in harder events? I remember deaths in triathlons from a sprint distance tri in Ohio to the IM Cali and IM Boulder, which weren't the easiest courses on the IM circuit.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I think the application process, and everything else you have mentioned, make your race more attractive.

My wife recently told me she is interested in doing Ultraman. I told her that is awesome and that I think she would be great at it. I also told her that she needs to do longer than sprint distance du/tri (she has down a 10 mile and half marathon running race) first. She will get there...and there is nothing wrong with taking the time in between.


Herbert wrote:
Our SwimRun NC race is very hard. But we do not allow just everyone to sign up.

It is not a race for beginners or slow folks. Basically if someone can’t run a road half marathon under 2 hours, a 70.3 under 6 hours or a full under 14 hours, then we reject the application. This is not about being elitist but it is about safety. Teams need to move fast to stay warm and not get hypothermia and the trails are very difficult.

We would rather not sell out than allow teams in that could be trouble.

Also it is not fair for volunteers to have to sit forever on the course because someone wants to walk the course.

And we have set very strict course cut off times .
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Re: Hard races and safety. [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
I'd go for a 10k swim for starters.

Not sureif it would make events any safer. It may cut iut the poorer swimmers, or may just push the problem further along the line (those who can swim 3.8k ok but not done enough to be comfortable or experienced at 10k.

I'd mainly like it to level the playing field re. swimmers vs bikers/ runners.

And more importantly its the only chance I'd have of putting a decent amount of time into my buddies who are better runners 😁

I’d also think the Ironman swim should be 10K. Obviously not happening anytime soon, but it really should be 10K as that’s the OW swimming “marathon” equivalent. 2.4 miles is kind of a joke really.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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For example, I hear of few deaths in long OW swims. Same with long bike events or long running events. They seem to be rare, why is that?

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I dont know about running events, but I do know that both OW and bike events require crews to be with the athletes. In the swim they have to have their own kayaker be beside them, and I think they are their part safety and part refueling (I think those events are self serve events). Bike rides require individual sag support right?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Hard races and safety. [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I think as time has progressed Ironman has become more of a fad causing an increase in inexperienced people racing. People doing less than the minimum just to crawl over the finish line and get an mdot tattoo. If you look at difficult ultra races you will see the requirements to be allowed to participate, requirements not necessary for shorter triathlons. For many ultra races your previous experience and results must demonstrate to the RD that you know what youre doing and wont be a risk to others/yourself during the race.

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a thought. Plan a triathlon that starts with a 10k swim, but find a way to make it not lose money when only 5 people sign up.

Chattanooga, TN has a 10-mile open water swim in the Tennessee River Gorge called "Swim the Suck". These are their participation numbers:

In 2018, 105 entered, 101 finished.
In 2017, 105 entered, 102 finished.
In 2016, 102 entered, 96 finished.
In 2015, 89 entered, 87 finished.

This year, their site says that "the 115 slots typically sell out within minutes", so they've got a good group of people who want to do this kind of swim. But I think if you asked all the finishers if they would like to follow this 4+ hour event (the first 23 went sub 4, the last finisher went 6:40) with a 116 mile bike ride, then a marathon run, maybe 5 might say "sure, I'm hard enough to do that".

Oh, just to get people started on a divergent topic, for the swimmer's safety the race does not allow water-resistant MP3 players.

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [chuy] [ In reply to ]
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I still don’t understand why we as a sport don’t encourage and push for proper progression with athletes racing. No athlete should be allowed to race a 70.3 as their 2nd event. That makes no sense but we stand behind ppl being allowed to do “anything”. More races and experience will help ppl in long run even if they are trying to rush this process. But “we” don’t have the guts to put that requirement on athletes from an federation to race directors.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Hard races and safety. [chuy] [ In reply to ]
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I think if the cutoff was a lot faster, then people on all legs of the race would be more capable. They'd not only be able to do the distance without increased risk from not being prepared, they could do it at speed. Meaning, they'd have a "safety valve" of being able to cut pace and finish safely.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I still don’t understand why we as a sport don’t encourage and push for proper progression with athletes racing. No athlete should be allowed to race a 70.3 as their 2nd event. That makes no sense but we stand behind ppl being allowed to do “anything”. More races and experience will help ppl in long run even if they are trying to rush this process. But “we” don’t have the guts to put that requirement on athletes from an federation to race directors.

what exactly do you mean by trying to rush the process?

my first tri was a local hilly 70.3, second was savageman 70, and third was full distance.

sprints and olympics do not appeal to me.

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal
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Re: Hard races and safety. [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]
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what exactly do you mean by trying to rush the process?

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I mean precisely what you did. But of course no one is going to push back and tell you no, except rare situations like Herbert's race (Swim-Run) event. I'm all for proper preperation, and maybe you did and maybe you didn't. I do know that having an athlete progress from a sprint-olympic-70.3-IM will give them much needed race experience and it will "showcase" their ability to at min handle the previous distance/race requirements.

But again athletes can choose basically any race distance they want, no one wants to tell someone "no" for fear of offending someone else.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Hard races and safety. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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I 100% agree. However implementing stricter cutoffs or requirements will hurt participation numbers for Ironman so they wont want to affect their bottom line. Same thing for many coaches, while they may know an athlete should hold off doing an IM distance how many are actually willing to turn people down and lose money to other coaches who dont care?

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]
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Another example. USAT has youth guidelines for under 18 year old athletes. Suggests proper race distances yet it then will certify any half distance events that allow 15-18 year olds enter the events. I’ve called them on this plenty of times and they shoulder shrug. They don’t give a shit, they just don’t want to say “no” to anyone.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Hard races and safety. [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]
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bluestacks867 wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I still don’t understand why we as a sport don’t encourage and push for proper progression with athletes racing. No athlete should be allowed to race a 70.3 as their 2nd event. That makes no sense but we stand behind ppl being allowed to do “anything”. More races and experience will help ppl in long run even if they are trying to rush this process. But “we” don’t have the guts to put that requirement on athletes from an federation to race directors.

what exactly do you mean by trying to rush the process?

my first tri was a local hilly 70.3, second was savageman 70, and third was full distance.

sprints and olympics do not appeal to me.

My first triathlon was a 70.3. However i could run a 5k in under 17 minutes when i first started triathlon training. Everyone is different. I think by saying “trying to rush the process” is for people who cant even run 1 mile trying to do an IM immediately.

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So if you got what you wanted and put restrictions on entering long-distance races, what is the reasoning? To prevent deaths?

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal
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Re: Hard races and safety. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I mean precisely what you did. But of course no one is going to push back and tell you no, except rare situations like Herbert's race (Swim-Run) event. I'm all for proper preperation, and maybe you did and maybe you didn't. I do know that having an athlete progress from a sprint-olympic-70.3-IM will give them much needed race experience and it will "showcase" their ability to at min handle the previous distance/race requirements.

But again athletes can choose basically any race distance they want, no one wants to tell someone "no" for fear of offending someone else.

But what if I was a D1 runner/swimmer/cyclist/rower that has some sprints and Oly tri's on my resumé going 55-ish and sub 2:00? Can I be trusted to handle myself in a 70.3 or IM?

I'm only playing Devil's Advocate to your position. At some point, it has to be on the athlete to prepare himself/herself for the event. I completely understand Swim-Run events requiring proof of "proper preparation." There are fewer athletes involved and RDs can verify the proof. Also, the continual change between horizontal-vertical body alignment throughout the race is much different that then one change that happens in triathlon.
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Re: Hard races and safety. [chuy] [ In reply to ]
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ill gladly let an athlete go and even tell them other coaches to go to if I don’t think it’s a good fit. I’ve done that with a group of 3 ladies recently who went against my advice and signed up for an IM (when I told them they were 2 years away with their ability and race demands).

Funny thing about that. 2 of their friends who I coach were like “damn you really will do what you think is best for an athlete”.

I care far more for my own long term career than spending 10 months getting you the athlete prepared for a race.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Hard races and safety. [chuy] [ In reply to ]
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I've run a 21min 5k as part of a duathlon (and I'm NOT a runner at all) and can TT a bike over 25mph. Doesn't mean I can go hop in a pool for a couple weeks and go out and bang out a 1.2mi swim though.

But a lot of folks really do think they can finish endurance events having never previously completed the distance at the pace.

People don't train 1/2 marathons to full distance. Or fulls. Tossing in two extra sports doesn't change that. I'd actually say for the bucket list participant that this mentality is more the norm than the exception.

I don't operate that way. In my training I have to breach that duration/distance, and then start beating it with some gusto at pace.

The cost in time and lower participation #'s is higher than people are willing to pay to weed out folks.

You can run tryouts for swim team, cross country, or a bike team. You can't really organize tryouts for a few thousand people doing a tri. People would cheat an entry form anyway.
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