As you say Francois, it's the problem with judged sports. Look at some of the figure skating decisions.

let's not even go into figure skating...the first criterion used for evaluating is 'how famous the skater is'...sucks...
add to that a french judge and you're in trouble :-)

Yeah, that is just the way these things go. This stuff really stinks for everyone, including Hamm. Now his medal is tarnished.

This is not as bad as the figure skating stuff, but it is still not good. You would think the judges would know the rules at this level.

what I was thinking too...Hamm gave his best and got gold, but now likely thinks "did I reall then?"...like if the austrian dude had kept the gold of Peirsol...

3 of the judges were suspended btw...how can this happen at the olympics???

I'd like to see two major changes in the Olympics:

1. Ban all flags and mention of nationality in results and everywhere else. Right now, the whole system is tied up in the most barbaric jingoistic provincialism of the 18th Century one can imagine. We got more medals than you did, nah nah da nah nah! Or, we could simply ban the French and Americans, who are probably the worst offenders. :)

2. Give the top three-five LAUREL WREATHS. Kill the medal baloney and recognize that we want to recognize achievement and THE STRUGGLE, not crown some prince of muscles. Give more recognition to individual participants and their struggles. If I overcame polio, a life of destitution/poverty, or some other extreme difficulty who is to say my achievement is not greater than the man who was born with great physical gifts into the lap of luxury? I simply feel we fail to recognize THE STRUGGLE, and instead recognize the result. As triathletes who struggle mightily we know about THE STRUGGLE.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

The second place swimmer is a good friend of Peirsol and immediately urged him to protest. He didn't want Peirsol's medal, since Peirsol won by a wide margin. I thought that was real class on the second place finisher's part.

The way is the goal


about the frogs...a friend of mine told me the media hammering around Laure Manaudou just sucks...that's how France's has traditionally taken potential gold medalists, and put so much pressure that eventually they choked...

"Ban all flags and mention of nationality in results and everywhere else."

The whole point is to see athletes of all nations come together to in friendly competition. These guys are there to represent their countries, but they all seem to get along. There are great stories about the Iraqi team for instance. I think "barbaric" and "jingoistic" might be overly harsh criticism.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Do you have any idea how much pressure is on kids age 8 and up here in America in age group swimming? As soon as a kid starts doing well, the word "OLYMPICS" pops up. It's crushing.... My daughter was a very strong age group swimmer and simply quit because of the pressure to excel. I was, I'll admit, part of the problem because I had too much of the Little League Father in me. Beware of the LLF! :)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"so the international fed of gymnastics has recognized that the korean dude was given not enough points at the start but yet will not change the medal attributions?
they also recognized that #3 was judged unfairly and should have .051 more than Hamm and won't change either because there is no appeal? "

It's the 3rd place gymnast who got screwed. Not both second and third. The FIG rules are that scores can not be appealed after the competititon. No different than if a ball was ruled out in tennis, but was actually in, and the player tried to appeal after the match.

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Slowguy

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I thought there was something fishy about that amazing comeback... or was it hammy?

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

I haven't been aware of the post-event details of men's overall gymnastics results until reading this string. If I understand everyones posts correctly, it's clear to the international gymnastics community that Hamm's gold (sounds like a midwest US beer) is tainted? Wow! Is Paul Hamm strong enough to say "I don't deserve this medal" and turn it over to the rightful winner? I sure hope so and he should not wait for any regulatory body to make him do it. Because if he does of his own accord, the amount of international goodwill he will generate and the amount of praise he will receive for that single unselfish righteous act will far exceed anything that is gained by keeping the medal.

indeed, the article referred to both first and last name and I thought they were two guys...

that said: Yang started with a 9.9 instead of a 10! It's NOT like a ball called out when it's in...it's started every game of one set with 0-15...

by the way, the judge is american...I have a pretty good idea what the comments would be like if Yang was american and the winner and the judge were french...

Actually, one of three judges was American, and apparently all 3 made the same mistake. (I think the others were Spanish and Colombian).

My point about the call is that, just as in most other sports, once the meet is over, the results are final, barring evidence of intentional wrongdoing or substance abuse. I'm certainly not defending the mistake, however, the Koreans are supposed to go over routines with the judges beforehand to make sure the correct value is assigned, and they are supposed to lodge complaints before the competition is over. I'm not saying it's their fault at all, just a breakdown in the system.

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Slowguy

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I fully agree with Slowguy on this one. The Koreas should have noticed this before the men even stepped into the arena. From what i understand the point value of a routine is determined well ahead of time. Correct me if i don't know what i'm talking about :)

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-Erik

"I don't half-ass anything. For me its either whole-ass or nothing." -elake

I agree. At this point, whether or not TPTB change anything, Hamm will not feel the same about his win. Being in possession of the gold medal isn't the same as earning the gold medal. But, I can see why the officials may not change this at this point. The decision should come from Hamm.

if the Korean gymnast had received his full start value and executed the same, who's to say he would still have won? With that tenth cushion, he might have not thrown as good a high bar routine. Or his teammate who came in 2nd might have done better. You can't look at each score individually because each event affects the ones after.

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Slowguy

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As I stated in a post the other day. Gymnastics is no different than a dance recital. Anything with a judge is not a sport.

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Same sad argument. I feel sorry for people with narrow minds.

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Slowguy

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Although I agree with all your points about the medals, Francois...

This happens because judges are people, and people make mistakes. Its like asking how in the hell Buckner missed that dribbler down the line. Or for that matter, how could Hamm have missed his vault that badly? This is the Olympics, isn't it? Bottom line...judges are people, people make mistakes, and if you compete in sports scored primarily by judges, you have to accept this fact. I'm not suggesting that we simply accept mediocrity. Just that these things ARE GOING to happen, even at the highest levels. Its a matter of human nature + mathematical odds.

the question people need to ask is
if hamm was in second or third and got screwed
would the great almighy usa team accept the mistake?
I highly doubt it
Bush would find a way to make it part of his campaign
and it would be a big stink
I think they should change the results

Yeah, it's the same way in trampoline... f'ing judges!

First, No one has argued that the Koreans shouldn't have made an appeal, just that they did it too late. Second, I don't know what you think the U.S. is in men's gymnastics, but they are certainly not traditionally "almighty". Third, the U.S. coaches did appeal two other routines during the competition. They did it during the meet, not after, and their appeals were handled accordingly.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

What he said.