HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison

Feb 19, 14 5:47

Post #1 of 149 (18367 views)

Last night I was incredibly bored and couldn't sleep so I did a numbers comparison between HED and Flo to see the value difference. It got me wondering, what does HED offer that makes them better than Flo? I know Flo is value based and HED is seen as a direct competitor to Zipp but looking at the numbers makes me wonder if it's really worth it.

Aero Wheels Comparison

HED Jet 9:
Front: 895 grams (1.97314 pounds) - $950
Rear: 1074 grams (2.367765 pounds) - $1050

HED Jet 6:
Front: 724 grams (1.59615 pounds) - $900
Rear: 936 grams (2.06353 pounds) - $1000

HED Jet Disc FR:
1210 grams (2.667593 pounds) - $1450

Flo 90:
Front: 999 grams (2.20242 pounds) - $424
Rear: 1199 grams (2.643343 pounds) - $474

Flo 60:
Front: 875 grams (1.92904 pounds) - $424
Rear: 1061 grams (2.339105 pounds) - $474

Flo Disc:
1260 grams (2.777825 pounds) - $599

Flo vs HED

HED Jet Disc FR vs Flo Disc
1260 grams (Flo) � 1210 grams (HED) = 50 grams (0.110231 pounds
$1450 (HED) - $599 (Flo) = $851
$/grams = $851/50 grams = $17.02/gram

Hed Jet 9 vs Flo 90 �
Front: 999 grams (Flo) � 895 grams (HED) = 104 grams (0.229281 pounds)
$950 (HED) � $424 (Flo) = $526
$/grams = $526/104 = $5.50769/gram

Rear: 1199 grams (Flo) � 1074 grams (HED) = 125 grams (0.275578 pounds)
$1050 (HED) - $474 (Flo) = $576
$/grams = $576/125 = $4.608/gram

Hed Jet 6 vs Flo 60 �
Front: 875 grams (Flo) � 724 grams (HED) = 151 grams (0.332898 pounds)
$900 (HED) � $424 (Flo) = $476
$/grams = $476/151 = $3.152317/gram

Rear: 1061 grams (Flo) � 936 grams (HED) = 125 grams (0.275578 pounds)
$1000 (HED) - $474 (Flo) = $526
$/grams = $526/125 = $4.208/gram

Thoughts? Aero data? Anything?

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Last edited by: BryanD: Feb 19, 14 5:49

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 5:59

Post #2 of 149 (18337 views)

i dont understand the rational of costing by weight? Are you a triathlete sonny boy?!! Go find their wind tunnel data and compare cost vs grams of drag over 'x' yaw angles...chop chop

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:06

Post #3 of 149 (18316 views)

Flo = no 650 option

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:09

Post #4 of 149 (18306 views)

I can buy a Head wheel when I need one.
I don't have to play games, and try to time when I am online and if I miss it wait another month.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:10

Post #5 of 149 (18303 views)

Sounds like you're telling me to go buy a Flo disc?

Hard to make a reasonable argument to buy wheels other than Flo.

The only one I can think of is that a solid disc sounds way cooler.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:11

Post #6 of 149 (18301 views)

Well obviously the HEDs are lighter.

Are they more aero? We don't know, nobody has compared them in the same tunnel with the same protocol that I am aware of.

You can also buy a HED whenever you want, you don't have to wait for the fire sale.

There could be some durability differences between the two, I don't know which would be more durable though. I do know I was able to complete a crit race on a HED Jet 9 powertab with a broken spoke. So that is cool. Maybe that is normal for rear wheels though. Would be better if the spoke had never broken but I'm not sure what the cause was. Wheel saw tons of miles and abuse from two bike racers for years.

BryanD wrote:

Last night I was incredibly bored and couldn't sleep so I did a numbers comparison between HED and Flo to see the value difference. It got me wondering, what does HED offer that makes them better than Flo? I know Flo is value based and HED is seen as a direct competitor to Zipp but looking at the numbers makes me wonder if it's really worth it.

Aero Wheels Comparison

HED Jet 9:
Front: 895 grams (1.97314 pounds) - $950
Rear: 1074 grams (2.367765 pounds) - $1050

HED Jet 6:
Front: 724 grams (1.59615 pounds) - $900
Rear: 936 grams (2.06353 pounds) - $1000

HED Jet Disc FR:
1210 grams (2.667593 pounds) - $1450

Flo 90:
Front: 999 grams (2.20242 pounds) - $424
Rear: 1199 grams (2.643343 pounds) - $474

Flo 60:
Front: 875 grams (1.92904 pounds) - $424
Rear: 1061 grams (2.339105 pounds) - $474

Flo Disc:
1260 grams (2.777825 pounds) - $599

Flo vs HED

HED Jet Disc FR vs Flo Disc
1260 grams (Flo) � 1210 grams (HED) = 50 grams (0.110231 pounds
$1450 (HED) - $599 (Flo) = $851
$/grams = $851/50 grams = $17.02/gram

Hed Jet 9 vs Flo 90 �
Front: 999 grams (Flo) � 895 grams (HED) = 104 grams (0.229281 pounds)
$950 (HED) � $424 (Flo) = $526
$/grams = $526/104 = $5.50769/gram

Rear: 1199 grams (Flo) � 1074 grams (HED) = 125 grams (0.275578 pounds)
$1050 (HED) - $474 (Flo) = $576
$/grams = $576/125 = $4.608/gram

Hed Jet 6 vs Flo 60 �
Front: 875 grams (Flo) � 724 grams (HED) = 151 grams (0.332898 pounds)
$900 (HED) � $424 (Flo) = $476
$/grams = $476/151 = $3.152317/gram

Rear: 1061 grams (Flo) � 936 grams (HED) = 125 grams (0.275578 pounds)
$1000 (HED) - $474 (Flo) = $526
$/grams = $526/125 = $4.208/gram

Thoughts? Aero data? Anything?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Jalp

Feb 19, 14 6:13

Post #7 of 149 (18298 views)

You're asking "is it worth it"?

Basically you're paying for R&D. FLO are trying to mimic the shape of all the competitors out there but I wouldn't trust those wheels even if they were free. Also, look at FLO's Aero data comparison, they are comparing their wheels to an Mavic aluminum rim. Ofcourse is going to have less drag but why not comparing to Zipp or HED. HED has a little bit more of history behind them but I would spend the extra $$ and go for Zipp no questions ask.

I was fortunate enough to have a tour in the Zipp factory with a team event and I can see why their products are the best and why they have a higher cost.

#it is what it is

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:26

Post #8 of 149 (18263 views)

jopy wrote:

FLO are trying to mimic the shape of all the competitors out there but I wouldn't trust those wheels even if they were free.

#it is what it is

Care to tell WHY you wouldn't trust the flo wheels, or is this just a opinion based upon no knowledge about Flo and because you love Zipp?

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:29

Post #9 of 149 (18250 views)

I made this out of curiosity. HED and Flo are popular brands of alumnium rims with carbon fairings. I can look at the drag numbers later and try to do a $/drag (grams) reduction

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Last edited by: BryanD: Feb 19, 14 6:32

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:31

Post #10 of 149 (18229 views)

It would be really interesting to test them head to head. One company used CFD with no wind tunnel design time, the other just tries stuff in the wind tunnel a lot with no CFD at all. (I think)

WHO WINS?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 6:45

Post #11 of 149 (18187 views)

jopy wrote:

You're asking "is it worth it"?

FLO are trying to mimic the shape of all the competitors out there but I wouldn't trust those wheels even if they were free. Also, look at FLO's Aero data comparison, they are comparing their wheels to an Mavic aluminum rim.

You don't trust aluminum wheels? Flo wheels are built around a pretty standard design (It's not like Flo is trying to re-invent the wheel here). Are you afraid that they'll explode on you like an old set of Carbon Spinnergy wheels? ...Your response seems pretty uninformed.

...and don't all manufacturers use something like a Mavic aluminum rim as their baseline measurement? Do they have to do a direct comparison with brand X before you believe the data? I don't get the point here.

Last edited by: beston: Feb 19, 14 6:49

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [matt75] [ In reply to ]

Jalp

Feb 19, 14 6:51

Post #12 of 149 (18168 views)

Sure. The reason carbon wheels are expensive is because there is R&D, testing, complex manufacturing processes that enable the companies to put a high value. FLO rims seem to be like any other start up carbon rim company that get some China rims and put a decal. They may claim a super aerodynamic design but all they are doing is mimicking high end companies and claiming to be super aero comparing their data to an aluminum rim. Nothing personal, just my thoughts. Is not just FLO, but Williams and other companies have done the same.

Just think about a carbon frame, in average they run about $3000. Now if a company comes and say they have a carbon frame for $400 I would be very hesitant to buy it. I think there's a fine line to where too cheap is kind of questionable, especially if you're a new company on the market.

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:02

Post #13 of 149 (18152 views)

It isn't a carbon rim man, and their design was based on CFD simulations.

jopy wrote:

Sure. The reason carbon wheels are expensive is because there is R&D, testing, complex manufacturing processes that enable the companies to put a high value. FLO rims seem to be like any other start up carbon rim company that get some China rims and put a decal. They may claim a super aerodynamic design but all they are doing is mimicking high end companies and claiming to be super aero comparing their data to an aluminum rim. Nothing personal, just my thoughts. Is not just FLO, but Williams and other companies have done the same.

Just think about a carbon frame, in average they run about $3000. Now if a company comes and say they have a carbon frame for $400 I would be very hesitant to buy it. I think there's a fine line to where too cheap is kind of questionable, especially if you're a new company on the market.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Jalp

Feb 19, 14 7:05

Post #14 of 149 (18143 views)

The Flo 30 isn't but all the other are hybrid carbon rims. So they should be comparing themselves to other hybrid carbon rims and not to aluminum rims.

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:10

Post #15 of 149 (18135 views)

jopy wrote:

Sure. The reason carbon wheels are expensive is because there is R&D, testing, complex manufacturing processes that enable the companies to put a high value. FLO rims seem to be like any other start up carbon rim company that get some China rims and put a decal. They may claim a super aerodynamic design but all they are doing is mimicking high end companies and claiming to be super aero comparing their data to an aluminum rim. Nothing personal, just my thoughts. Is not just FLO, but Williams and other companies have done the same.

Just think about a carbon frame, in average they run about $3000. Now if a company comes and say they have a carbon frame for $400 I would be very hesitant to buy it. I think there's a fine line to where too cheap is kind of questionable, especially if you're a new company on the market.

You apparently know absolutely nothing about FLO, or you simply think they are flat our liars. I'm going go give you the benefit of the doubt and go with "uninformed"....

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:12

Post #16 of 149 (18124 views)

You are making ridiculous statements.

Nice try though.

Formerly DrD

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:18

Post #17 of 149 (18106 views)

jopy wrote:

The Flo 30 isn't but all the other are hybrid carbon rims. So they should be comparing themselves to other hybrid carbon rims and not to aluminum rims.

PSA: Don't feed the troll.

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:22

Post #18 of 149 (18100 views)

The *rim* is aluminum on all of their wheels, just like the HED. There is nothing structurally tricky about it, it is identical to any other metal wheel. The carbon fairing isn't structural.

They can compare it against whatever they want. The Mavic they used is the same reference wheel most of the big companies use in their comparisons as well.

jopy wrote:

The Flo 30 isn't but all the other are hybrid carbon rims. So they should be comparing themselves to other hybrid carbon rims and not to aluminum rims.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [BryanD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:23

Post #19 of 149 (18098 views)

Even though we are triathletes... :) Half a pound on a wheelset is a good amount IMHO.
Also, I don't know how many people truly pay MSRP for HED wheels.
I had a very easy time finding a new Stinger 9 C2 wheel for $650, and a very lightly used Stinger disc for $850. I see people selling lightly used JET wheels and discs on this forum all the time, no reason to buy new, especially if looking at MSRP. If you are set on new, you can find new HED Jet's on ebay for way under MSRP...
Oh, and HED offers tubulars... :)

Last edited by: gibson00: Feb 19, 14 7:25

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jopy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:27

Post #20 of 149 (18048 views)

You mean aluminum rims with a carbon fairing? They use the Open Pro as a reference - that's more or less standard practice in the industry. It's not as if they are hiding the drag scale on their data. You want to know how it compares to Hed of Zipp just look at the numbers. Although that's not a fair comparison in either direction because the data wasn't collected under the same conditions with the same equipment, tires, etc. It at least gives you a ballpark. You seem to simply be a Zipp fanboy. That's fine and all - I own several sets of Zipp wheels and love them - but I'm also objective enough to see that Flo offers a very compelling value-oriented alternative that likely only gives up a small amount of performance. Long-term durability and customer service is yet to be determined.

jopy wrote:

The Flo 30 isn't but all the other are hybrid carbon rims. So they should be comparing themselves to other hybrid carbon rims and not to aluminum rims.

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [gibson00] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:30

Post #21 of 149 (18042 views)

gibson00 wrote:

Even though we are triathletes... :) Half a pound on a wheelset is a good amount IMHO.

It seems like it but the time lost due to that amount of weight is about 1.5 seconds per 40k (on real courses with some elevation change, not idealized flat courses)

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [gibson00] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:33

Post #22 of 149 (18020 views)

True - but you need to weigh the benefit of that 1/2 pound savings against the additional cost. If you run the data you'll see that even 1/2 pound or more makes virtually no difference unless the majority of the course has a significant uphill grade. So sure, there are instances where that 1/2 pound could make a difference but it's probably very rare, especially for triathletes who aren't constantly accelerating that rotating mass to surge and sprint.

Also - used or non-authorized sellers = no warranty. That is important to some people.

Finally - tubulars...no comment :)

gibson00 wrote:

Even though we are triathletes... :) Half a pound on a wheelset is a good amount IMHO.
Also, I don't know how many people truly pay MSRP for HED wheels.
I had a very easy time finding a new Stinger 9 C2 wheel for $650, and a very lightly used Stinger disc for $850. I see people selling lightly used JET wheels and discs on this forum all the time, no reason to buy new, especially if looking at MSRP. If you are set on new, you can find new HED Jet's on ebay for way under MSRP...
Oh, and HED offers tubulars... :)

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:36

Post #23 of 149 (18010 views)

Even if you are mark cavendish that additional rotating mass has almost no impact. The added mass does affect a powerful sprint a little bit, but whether or not it is rotating is an incredibly tiny difference.

You can make a copy of this spreadsheet to play with the numbers:

https://docs.google.com/...;usp=drive_web#gid=0

TH3_FRB wrote:

True - but you need to weigh the benefit of that 1/2 pound savings against the additional cost. If you run the data you'll see that even 1/2 pound or more makes virtually no difference unless the majority of the course has a significant uphill grade. So sure, there are instances where that 1/2 pound could make a difference but it's probably very rare, especially for triathletes who aren't constantly accelerating that rotating mass to surge and sprint.

Also - used or non-authorized sellers = no warranty. That is important to some people.

Finally - tubulars...no comment :)

gibson00 wrote:

Even though we are triathletes... :) Half a pound on a wheelset is a good amount IMHO.
Also, I don't know how many people truly pay MSRP for HED wheels.
I had a very easy time finding a new Stinger 9 C2 wheel for $650, and a very lightly used Stinger disc for $850. I see people selling lightly used JET wheels and discs on this forum all the time, no reason to buy new, especially if looking at MSRP. If you are set on new, you can find new HED Jet's on ebay for way under MSRP...
Oh, and HED offers tubulars... :)

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:36

Post #24 of 149 (18007 views)

jackmott wrote:

gibson00 wrote:

Even though we are triathletes... :) Half a pound on a wheelset is a good amount IMHO.

It seems like it but the time lost due to that amount of weight is about 1.5 seconds per 40k (on real courses with some elevation change, not idealized flat courses)

I have the "discussion" all the time with a friend of mine who races bikes and does duathlons. His answers to my questions crack me up. At this point I troll him on rides just for the giggle.

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Re: HED vs Flo Wheels - Numbers Comparison [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 14 7:37

Post #25 of 149 (18004 views)

There ya go - ~8sec over an IM bike course. Just decide how much you are willing to spend for that 8sec.

jackmott wrote:

It seems like it but the time lost due to that amount of weight is about 1.5 seconds per 40k (on real courses with some elevation change, not idealized flat courses)

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