Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation.
Quote | Reply
Came across this infographic, which I thought was elegant in its simplicity and also quite effective in communicating a somewhat complicated topic.



The middle one is the worst. And yet that is the one that I believe is typified by most common training plans, especially the trainingpeaks/TSS model. It "rewards" a lot of "kind of" hard work, and yet I don't think it's actually necessarily indicative of what provides the most effective stimulus. I realize that the TSS model has had a lot of success in cycling, but I think it's a lot less applicable for triathlon, especially because there's really no good way to measure TSS in the pool and because I think it undervalues the impact of easy running, which I think are much more valuable than easy cycling...

The takeaways, in my opinion, are two fold:
- the value of a lot of very consistent but easy training.
- the benefit of only a few very hard sessions.

The ideal mix is a combination of high and low intensity, with only moderate middle intensities. Basically, minimize how much so-called "sweet spot" training you do, because it is not at all the sweet spot...

Credit for the photo goes to Mike Young, PhD on Twitter - @MikeYoung

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a "TrainingPeaks/TSS model" or approach to training. Maybe you can tell me what it is?
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew Coggan wrote:
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a "TrainingPeaks/TSS model" or approach to training. Maybe you can tell me what it is?


Others can weigh in on the nuances, but the TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart is an implied model or approach, i.e. it maps training stress onto improved fitness using a fancy formula. I'm not in a position to gauge whether it adequately acknowledges the need for rest or the impact of recovery workouts, though. Hope this thread triggers a lively discussion of these topics!
Last edited by: niccolo: Apr 25, 16 12:16
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:

The takeaways, in my opinion, are two fold:
- the value of a lot of very consistent but easy training.
- the benefit of only a few very hard sessions.


Where are the hard sessions in the first graph?

My takeaway from this graphic (not from real life), would be if I train easy once per day, I will keep getting better forever, until I can crush Andy Potts.

Or that I can train really hard for 5 minutes 6 times a day (in picture 3), and keep getting better forever until I crush Andy Potts.
Last edited by: copperman: Apr 25, 16 10:23
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
niccolo wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a "TrainingPeaks/TSS model" or approach to training. Maybe you can tell me what it is?

Others can weigh in on the nuances, but the TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart is an implied model or approach, e.g. it maps training stress onto improved fitness using a fancy formula. I'm not in a position to gauge whether it adequately acknowledges the need for rest or the impact of recovery workouts, though. Hope this thread triggers a lively discussion of these topics!

I know what it is/does (see my .sig). The mistake that Jordan is making is ass u me ing that it advocates a particular approach to training, when in point-of-fact it is agnostic to how you train.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew Coggan wrote:
niccolo wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a "TrainingPeaks/TSS model" or approach to training. Maybe you can tell me what it is?

Others can weigh in on the nuances, but the TrainingPeaks Performance Management Chart is an implied model or approach, e.g. it maps training stress onto improved fitness using a fancy formula. I'm not in a position to gauge whether it adequately acknowledges the need for rest or the impact of recovery workouts, though. Hope this thread triggers a lively discussion of these topics!

I know what it is/does (see my .sig).

And, just for the record, yes, I have ridden a fixed gear.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, I agree. Rappstar totally missed the mark on this one. TSS is scaled to volume and intensity. TP is a platform, and great one at that, but it's use alone is not going to decide what kind of adaptation come.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This could be a fun thread to watch...
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [kscheiris] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kscheiris wrote:
Yeah, I agree. Rappstar totally missed the mark on this one. TSS is scaled to volume and intensity. TP is a platform, and great one at that, but it's use alone is not going to decide what kind of adaptation come.


I don't think that is what Jordan meant. I think he meant that the PMC chart should not be used as a surrogate for a well thought out, intentional, training plan.
Last edited by: turningscrews: Apr 25, 16 11:05
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ooh, can I play the "guess what Jordan meant game". I'm guessing that what Jordan meant is that the TSS model tends to encourage CTL chasing since that is the primary metric of "fitness". Without guidance, it is fairly easy to "discover" that the best CTL chasing technique is to go high volume medium hard day after day since you can accumulate large TSS.

My criticism of Jordan's post is that while the info-graphic might be correct he didn't point me at anything to help me make a decision about whether it is. Show me the data please. I'm already inclined to believe that TSS is not the whole answer (certainly not for road racing where W' or its moral equivalent matters a _lot_).
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The nuance in your summary is that "a lot of easy training" is probably not, in that context, 8-10 hours spread across 3 sports

If you're full time or have 20 hours a week and can do lots of LSD interspersed with hard efforts then that may well be ideal but I barely have half that time and spending it at low intensities with infrequent hard efforts is possibly not the best Utilisation of the limited time I have

That said, I'm more interested in consistency week to week at presenot and whatever allows me to achieve that
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The problem is that what is "really" considered easy what is considered "hard". Maybe this is personal or maybe its not.

Swim: ????
Bike: Is easy less than 60% FTP, <65%, <70%? What is hard? >100% FTP
Run: HR based on LTHR or Max HR? Based on Threshold speed? What are these zones?

I think this is why a lot of athletes get it wrong because they think they are going easy when they are actually going too hard.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
Without guidance, it is fairly easy to "discover" that the best CTL chasing technique is to go high volume medium hard day after day since you can accumulate large TSS.

Except that that's not really true. That is, if you really want to rack up a lot of TSS points, you've got to cycle for many hours, which in and of itself limits the intensity.* In fact, many people complain that TSS provides too much credit for duration, and too little credit for intensity.

*Fig. 2 in this article shows this rather nicely: http://freewebs.com/...ynamics2/PerfMgr.pdf
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [trimac2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trimac2 wrote:
The problem is that what is "really" considered easy what is considered "hard". Maybe this is personal or maybe its not.

Swim: ????
Bike: Is easy less than 60% FTP, <65%, <70%? What is hard? >100% FTP
Run: HR based on LTHR or Max HR? Based on Threshold speed? What are these zones?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Although I agree with this chart, it only is very relevant for 0.5% of athletes.

Many people from my observations are not exercising twice a day, nor do many know how to even push themselves hard enough to reach the peaks in the top chart. Most triathletes would benefit from more sessions and going harder.

Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hmm, perhaps I didn't express myself very well, I think your chart agrees with what I was saying. Suppose I am shooting for a CTL of 100 for some reason. It would be super hard to do that with 1hr a day (at least for me). But your chart shows nicely that I might do at at 2hrs at IF=.7, or maybe even 3 hrs at .6ish. Both of those seem quite achievable and what I was calling "medium hard" (e.g. IF<=.7) and "high volume". I was trying to say exactly what you mention as a complaint, that TSS credits duration so that if that is your only metric you will learn to favor duration over intensity.

Reminds me of the story of a friend who had a buddy that rode across America and was trash talking that since he rode 6+hrs a day he was going to crush everyone when he got back. The punchline was that he got really good at riding 6+hrs a day at a steady 15 mph, but got dropped by the local group rides when he got back.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
Came across this infographic, which I thought was elegant in its simplicity and also quite effective in communicating a somewhat complicated topic.



The middle one is the worst. And yet that is the one that I believe is typified by most common training plans, especially the trainingpeaks/TSS model. It "rewards" a lot of "kind of" hard work, and yet I don't think it's actually necessarily indicative of what provides the most effective stimulus. I realize that the TSS model has had a lot of success in cycling, but I think it's a lot less applicable for triathlon, especially because there's really no good way to measure TSS in the pool and because I think it undervalues the impact of easy running, which I think are much more valuable than easy cycling...

The takeaways, in my opinion, are two fold:
- the value of a lot of very consistent but easy training.
- the benefit of only a few very hard sessions.

The ideal mix is a combination of high and low intensity, with only moderate middle intensities. Basically, minimize how much so-called "sweet spot" training you do, because it is not at all the sweet spot...

Credit for the photo goes to Mike Young, PhD on Twitter - @MikeYoung

I think the wildcard here is the running.

The sweet spot or even super high intensity on the bike and swim, you can handle a lot of and it seems athletes adapt (for that matter on XC skis too). The problem is when you overlay running on top of this.

What about doing a lot of intensity on the bike and swim, and use the third line in your graphic for the run training....just to a lot of low intensity, low volume frequent running and do all you intensity on the swim+bike. This model would likely suffice for 90% of age groupers who are never really running that fast in racing anyway....the fastest age group run pace is often from swim exit to bike start and every other step of running ends up being way slower (at least in half and full IM racing)
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm confused: What does the dotted green squiggle represent?
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
Hmm, perhaps I didn't express myself very well, I think your chart agrees with what I was saying. Suppose I am shooting for a CTL of 100 for some reason. It would be super hard to do that with 1hr a day (at least for me). But your chart shows nicely that I might do at at 2hrs at IF=.7, or maybe even 3 hrs at .6ish. Both of those seem quite achievable and what I was calling "medium hard" (e.g. IF<=.7)

IF <0.75 = recovery.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here you have actual training.
Green=easy
Yellow=L3
Red=L4/5 and competitions


Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew Coggan wrote:
trimac2 wrote:
The problem is that what is "really" considered easy what is considered "hard". Maybe this is personal or maybe its not.

Swim: ????
Bike: Is easy less than 60% FTP, <65%, <70%? What is hard? >100% FTP
Run: HR based on LTHR or Max HR? Based on Threshold speed? What are these zones?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw


Well played.


--Chris
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As a pure cyclist I've found TSS-based metrics to be near useless as an instantaneous snapshot of my current state. My subjective perception of "how fatigued am I?" seems to be far more accurate. Sometimes when it tells me I should be "fresh" I'm still deeply fatigued. Sometimes the inverse.

They are useful metrics for long-term planning. E.g. how does my training load in April compare to what it was in January?

In terms of the graphics, they give the false impression that the body responds to stress in a nice linear, predictable way. My body, apparently, didn't get that memo. Fitness improves in fits and starts.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Let me see if I can put the "criticism" another way. NP/TSS/CTL is a huge step forward; I've seen personally and for others that it comes as a bit of a revelation in terms of providing a metric for their cycling. The trap is that used naively, what you measure naturally becomes what you optimize, so I've seen a tendency for people (myself included) to tune their training toward higher TSS/CTL at the expense of training mix. If there is a training mix that an individual finds easier to achieve the same TSS, they will tend toward that even if it is not what would best achieve their training goal. Thus, the particulars of the measuring tool can accidentally shape the direction of training in sub-optimal ways. Addressing that shortcoming is a place where proper coaching, training plans, and/or the use of additional metrics that provide ways of measuring other dimensions of training can help add value.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
Let me see if I can put the "criticism" another way. NP/TSS/CTL is a huge step forward; I've seen personally and for others that it comes as a bit of a revelation in terms of providing a metric for their cycling. The trap is that used naively, what you measure naturally becomes what you optimize, so I've seen a tendency for people (myself included) to tune their training toward higher TSS/CTL at the expense of training mix. If there is a training mix that an individual finds easier to achieve the same TSS, they will tend toward that even if it is not what would best achieve their training goal. Thus, the particulars of the measuring tool can accidentally shape the direction of training in sub-optimal ways. Addressing that shortcoming is a place where proper coaching, training plans, and/or the use of additional metrics that provide ways of measuring other dimensions of training can help add value.

Only a bad carpenter blames their tools.
Quote Reply
Re: Graphical Representation of Training Load & Adaptation. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That is a clever come back, but a crappy cop-out. I build "tools" myself in a professional context and know first hand that tools can be effective along some dimensions and poor along others. When a user says that the tool makes it too easy to shoot themselves in the foot, I don't just say "Don't point at your foot", I try to see if there are ways to improve it.
Quote Reply

Prev Next