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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:

Have a look at the people in your own neighbourhood Michael .The winner of the 3k swim you did this month swam 34:41 which is 1:09 per 100meter pace or 5.2kph without a wetsuit.Go speak to some of the top swimmers in your Open Water community and ask them how they may be able to help.
DWBTT 3.0k FINAL RESULT (filesusr.com)


The course was not accurate and was only 2.7 k - but it did not matter. What's important was that the top swimmers are national triathlon team members. I no longer think that's achievable for me.

As seen from my involvement in the OW / triathlon community, I can only say that there are 3 kinds of people:

  1. Those who are naturally born swimmers - they are always in the top half of the pack
  2. Those who suck at swimming and remains in the mid or even bottom of the pack year after year
  3. The rare ones who get some decent speed to get to about 1/4 or 1/3 of the field after a few years picking up the sport

If the people here always talk about 1:30 / 100 m is easy pace, that means I suck at swimming because I still can't get to this speed after a few years of picking up the sport. Getting to this pace means about 1/4 to 1/3 of the field already.

P.S. I'm now doing race pace training in this season. I've already "successfully" taken out 2 seconds out of my 100 m in 2 weeks' time. For me this is the fastest way for me to make improvement in addition to getting coaching. 3 weeks ago I failed at the 15th 100 targeting 1:50 sending off every 2:10, now I reached the 28th 100 targeting 1:48 sending off every 2:08 for the first failure.
Last edited by: miklcct: Nov 23, 20 4:40
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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Those who are naturally born swimmers - they are always in the top half of the pack
---
Unlikely. Those who you think are natural born swimmers are simply the guys/ gals that actually committed to the sport and have been that way for many years. Most of the blokes on this forum who complain that they can't do those times are limited by their lack of desire to get to the pool for 12-18 hours a week for 6+ years in a row. There's absolutely nothing natural about that. Ask a struggling triathlete who's not a good runner to run 6-8 times a week, no problem. Ditto for the bike. But swimming...?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Those who are naturally born swimmers - they are always in the top half of the pack
---
Unlikely. Those who you think are natural born swimmers are simply the guys/ gals that actually committed to the sport and have been that way for many years.

Those I think are natural born swimmers were really high school competitive swimmers in the past. They are a different beast. High school competitive swimming consists of self-selected elites who could sustain years and years of brutal training without burning out.


Tri-Banter wrote:
Ask a struggling triathlete who's not a good runner to run 6-8 times a week, no problem. Ditto for the bike. But swimming...?


Really?! OK that's because most triathlons are won on the bike, then the run. Unless the "mainstream" format is more balanced it will not change. (I'm interested in a balanced triathlon like Isoman which the swim / bike / run are taking similar times (maybe slightly more for the bike), e.g. swim 10 km, bike 100 km, run marathon)

However, I'm struggling to run even 4 - 5 times a week because after every run my feet are so painful. I currently swim at most 5 times a week. If I add a 6th I can't recover well as most of my sessions are high intensity in my peak season.
Last edited by: miklcct: Nov 23, 20 5:30
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
dunno wrote:
There is plenty of literature, chat and training advice about going slow to go fast with running.


Does they same hold true for swimming though? A lot of training plans seem to be the complete opposite-lots of short sharp intervals. Why is this? Can you approach swimming in the same way-long comfortable low HR sets with a speed day or two during the week?


In short, yes, you can (& should) absolutely approach swimming the same way.

This post about my time with one of the greatest swimmers of all time offers some more details...

https://alancouzens.com/blog/touretski.html

Alan,

As you know but other most certainly do not, a half decent way to approximate a swimmers base aerobic pace is to do an all out 30 minute swim. The swimmers average pace for the swim is their base pace for a AEROBIC set of 100's. Urbancek took this to a (tortured) extreme using his rainbow charts and interval sendoffs.

So a swimmer doing 3000 yards in 30 minutes would have a T Pace of 1:00 / 100. And their bread and butter set would be hundreds on 1:10 interval with a goal of 1:00 per 100.

There isn't much merit in comparing this to running. Kipchoge does 40 minute aerobic runs of 10km nearly every day at his marathon pace plus 33 +/- 5%. There is NO value of a swimmer taking that kind of approach.

Or consider it from a running point of view: Kipchoge is probably able to hold around 2:48 / km for 30 minutes. If he were to approach his workout like a swimmer he would do 30 x 65 second quarters with :10 rest AS HIS RECOVERY set.

Prior to sprint specialization - which has really put all of this on its head - every elite squad was doing 80-90% of their work in an aerobic zone. That is VERY true and is good advice to anyone who wants to get better. But lets be very clear: in practice this is so unlike "running" it is only worth bringing up in order to say as a way. "yes, but nothing like running!"
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
dunno wrote:
There is plenty of literature, chat and training advice about going slow to go fast with running.


Does they same hold true for swimming though? A lot of training plans seem to be the complete opposite-lots of short sharp intervals. Why is this? Can you approach swimming in the same way-long comfortable low HR sets with a speed day or two during the week?


In short, yes, you can (& should) absolutely approach swimming the same way.

This post about my time with one of the greatest swimmers of all time offers some more details...

https://alancouzens.com/blog/touretski.html


Alan,

As you know but other most certainly do not, a half decent way to approximate a swimmers base aerobic pace is to do an all out 30 minute swim. The swimmers average pace for the swim is their base pace for a AEROBIC set of 100's. Urbancek took this to a (tortured) extreme using his rainbow charts and interval sendoffs.

So a swimmer doing 3000 yards in 30 minutes would have a T Pace of 1:00 / 100. And their bread and butter set would be hundreds on 1:10 interval with a goal of 1:00 per 100.

There isn't much merit in comparing this to running. Kipchoge does 40 minute aerobic runs of 10km nearly every day at his marathon pace plus 33 +/- 5%. There is NO value of a swimmer taking that kind of approach.

Or consider it from a running point of view: Kipchoge is probably able to hold around 2:48 / km for 30 minutes. If he were to approach his workout like a swimmer he would do 30 x 65 second quarters with :10 rest AS HIS RECOVERY set.

Prior to sprint specialization - which has really put all of this on its head - every elite squad was doing 80-90% of their work in an aerobic zone. That is VERY true and is good advice to anyone who wants to get better. But lets be very clear: in practice this is so unlike "running" it is only worth bringing up in order to say as a way. "yes, but nothing like running!"


AJ,

I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything that you said.

While that may be somewhat common in some American programs, I can assure you it is not what "every elite squad was doing". The vast majority of Popov's work was under 2mmol/L - nowhere near threshold. Ditto for Thorpe, who I also spent time with.

In fact, as I recall, even Urbanchek's program had a whole lot of "white and pink" swimming (1-3mmol/L, 120-150bpm) in it.

IOW, in output terms, very similar to what Kipchoge and pretty much any World Class athlete is doing, i.e. a whole lot of work below VT1.

The reality is that a swimmer only has so many meters at their best 3000m pace in them! It's a little crazy to think that they're going to nail 100K weeks with the bulk at their best 3K pace week after week & stay healthy and improve. That sort of output is just not sustainable - as I also saw first hand in several less successful programs that I was unfortunate enough to be a part of. Smile

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Nov 23, 20 13:27
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:

So a swimmer doing 3000 yards in 30 minutes would have a T Pace of 1:00 / 100. And their bread and butter set would be hundreds on 1:10 interval with a goal of 1:00 per 100.

There isn't much merit in comparing this to running. Kipchoge does 40 minute aerobic runs of 10km nearly every day at his marathon pace plus 33 +/- 5%. There is NO value of a swimmer taking that kind of approach.


AJ,

I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything that you said.

While that may be somewhat common in some American programs, I can assure you it is not what "every elite squad was doing". The vast majority of Popov's work was under 2mmol/L - nowhere near threshold. Ditto for Thorpe, who I also spent time with.

In fact, as I recall, even Urbanchek's program had a whole lot of "white and pink" swimming (1-3mmol/L, 120-150bpm) in it.

The reality is that a swimmer only has so many meters at their best 3000m pace in them! It's a little crazy to think that they're going to nail 100K weeks with the bulk at their best 3K pace week after week & stay healthy and improve.


Yes. Tons of white work. ASK ME HOW I KNOW.

White pace 100's are at T30 pace. 200's are T30 +2 second/100. And yes, we tested lactic acid and HR. For a well trained swimmer a set of 100's at T30 pace is easy.

Phelps avg 55.6 for a 5000, I would estimate he would degrade to :57/ if he were to do 10,000. Are you suggesting that he did his 100 recovery sets at 1:17 / 100 yards (IE 35% slower than his "marathon" pace). His easy KICK sets were significantly faster than that. He never swam that slowly. That is easy swimming...for ME!

Let's just look at the data from your blog: You said you saw POPOV swimming at 1:04 / 100 with lactate number under 2. 1:04 is at the top end of what I would estimate his T30 pace to be. Are you suggesting that an elite runner can run repeat 400s at the their 10K pace without elevating lactate acid? I'll take that bet.

As concise as possible - yes, you should do lots of easy swimming. No, easy swimming doesn't look anything like easy running.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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I will admit a measure of sarcasm in my response (but only a little).


But here's the rub, I had just read thru the most appalling rubbish about minimum speeds and people who claimed that they would have to slow down to swim a 1:30. Further reading since then has just confirmed that BS level on many accounts.


The OP asked a simple question. Why, if it works in so many other sports, wouldn't there be a benefit to swimming long and slow. It's not a daft question. Because essentially that's what the other two disciplines recommend. I read the thread because I thought I might learn something.


What followed was Olympic (I guess), Olympic wannabees and various others, telling everyone what constitutes swimming.


Here's a site you can spend hours having fun with comparing individual times and splits. https://www.sportstats.ca/search-results.xhtml


I spent a little time on it to look at last years Kona results. What they confirmed to me was that ................

1) 57 mins the apparently minimum speed for some and a dawdle for others was only bettered by 76 people, Pro male or female or AG, out of 2126 finishers.
2) No one in any age group (mens, or womens) who won the swim, won the race, or placed (except one AG woman)
3) Finishing the swim comfortably is more important than winning the swim. My conclusion.

I would invite anyone to spend a little time going thru any IM race (or half for that matter) and confirm that 1:30 pace is not some pedestrian achievement.
Now for clarity, I must admit I am a shit swimmer and haven't swum below 1:30 for any reasonable distance in 25 years so perhaps I'm just jealous of these studs.
But nothing they had to say helped the OP in slightest.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Those who are naturally born swimmers - they are always in the top half of the pack
---
Unlikely. Those who you think are natural born swimmers are simply the guys/ gals that actually committed to the sport and have been that way for many years. Most of the blokes on this forum who complain that they can't do those times are limited by their lack of desire to get to the pool for 12-18 hours a week for 6+ years in a row. There's absolutely nothing natural about that. Ask a struggling triathlete who's not a good runner to run 6-8 times a week, no problem. Ditto for the bike. But swimming...?

I would second this. I am on year 5 of 365+ hrs per year of swimming (barely 1 hrs per day). I still have ~6 years to go to get to 6 years of 18 hrs per week to get to that focused time in the pool, but after my "swim penance" in my 50's, I regret I did not do this in my teens, but I see why there are no natural swimmers. Now when people see me swim all 4 strokes they asked me if I swam in my teens and college (the layman may see a "natural born swimmer from the deck"....the clock say its still slow compared to those of you who learned in youth).

I do think with 5 more years of 365 hrs per year in the pool, I'll be one of the top guys in my age group at swimming nationals at a variety of events. At least I have to believe I can get there to actually get there and that means a lot of trips to the pool and a lot of repitition.

Dev
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:

So a swimmer doing 3000 yards in 30 minutes would have a T Pace of 1:00 / 100. And their bread and butter set would be hundreds on 1:10 interval with a goal of 1:00 per 100.

There isn't much merit in comparing this to running. Kipchoge does 40 minute aerobic runs of 10km nearly every day at his marathon pace plus 33 +/- 5%. There is NO value of a swimmer taking that kind of approach.


AJ,

I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything that you said.

While that may be somewhat common in some American programs, I can assure you it is not what "every elite squad was doing". The vast majority of Popov's work was under 2mmol/L - nowhere near threshold. Ditto for Thorpe, who I also spent time with.

In fact, as I recall, even Urbanchek's program had a whole lot of "white and pink" swimming (1-3mmol/L, 120-150bpm) in it.

The reality is that a swimmer only has so many meters at their best 3000m pace in them! It's a little crazy to think that they're going to nail 100K weeks with the bulk at their best 3K pace week after week & stay healthy and improve.


Yes. Tons of white work. ASK ME HOW I KNOW.

White pace 100's are at T30 pace. 200's are T30 +2 second/100. And yes, we tested lactic acid and HR. For a well trained swimmer a set of 100's at T30 pace is easy.

Phelps avg 55.6 for a 5000, I would estimate he would degrade to :57/ if he were to do 10,000. Are you suggesting that he did his 100 recovery sets at 1:17 / 100 yards (IE 35% slower than his "marathon" pace). His easy KICK sets were significantly faster than that. He never swam that slowly. That is easy swimming...for ME!

Let's just look at the data from your blog: You said you saw POPOV swimming at 1:04 / 100 with lactate number under 2. 1:04 is at the top end of what I would estimate his T30 pace to be. Are you suggesting that an elite runner can run repeat 400s at the their 10K pace without elevating lactate acid? I'll take that bet.

As concise as possible - yes, you should do lots of easy swimming. No, easy swimming doesn't look anything like easy running.


Dude,

T30 (as a maximal effort test) is at or above threshold pace. We did T3000s at the Australian Institute of Sport which would almost line up with your T30 and the pace that you swim for a max effort 3000m is anything but easy, I can assure you, and the blood lactate at the end of the 3000m is certainly NOT less than 2mmol/L (unless you have a really funky blood lactate curve)

No, an elite runner cannot run repeats at their best 10K pace without elevating lactate, just as an elite swimmer can not swim repeats at their best 3K pace without elevating lactate. That's my entire point. It's threshold work (even with the 10s RI) and you only have so much of that in you in a training week.

I will agree with your close - "yes, you should do lots of easy swimming. No, easy swimming doesn't look anything like easy running." No, it doesn't look like easy running because (& solely because) of the physics of the aquatic medium, i.e. the speed gap between hard and easy is much less than in the water than is for running (to the power of ^3 to be exact, so the 35% slower than marathon pace becomes ~4% slower than marathon pace in the pool) *but* the feeling (&RPE, lactate etc) of easy work should be exactly the same & swimmers who want to improve should do a lot of it!

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Nov 23, 20 14:47
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Not that I agree with the training done in the Popov/Thorpe/Urbancek era, but the vast majority of training done in that time in the US was hard. If you want to include the warm up as part of the training then it would dilute down the overall, but the main sets were always hard. I never remember being at a conversational pace.

I think the big mistake triathlon coaches and a lot of swim coaches make with the swim is to think that the primary aspect you are training is aerobic/anaerobic conditioning. When in actuality that's just the byproduct of training the brain / nervous system to efficiently make the movement of swimming fast.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Not that I agree with the training done in the Popov/Thorpe/Urbancek era, but the vast majority of training done in that time in the US was hard.


Yes, I dare say a large part of why Popov, Thorpe, Perkins, Hackett et al. had such success during that period of time against their U.S. rivals Wink

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Nov 23, 20 16:05
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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And yet the US was the overwhelmingly dominant country at the Olympics and holder of world records with a good part of the fastest International swimmers training at US universities.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
And yet the US was the overwhelmingly dominant country at the Olympics and holder of world records with a good part of the fastest International swimmers training at US universities.

Not during that time, at least for the men - World Records:
- Popov 50 & 100,
- Thorpe 200 & 400,
- Hackett 1500.

I had the good fortune to witness firsthand how the first 2 did it and some time watching the 3rd guy too at National camps & it sure wasn't with exclusive "hard" training or "brain & nervous system training" for that matter Crazy

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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michael Hatch [font Arial wrote:
I spent a little time on it to look at last years Kona results. What they confirmed to me was that ................ [/font]

1) 57 mins the apparently minimum speed for some and a dawdle for others was only bettered by 76 people, Pro male or female or AG, out of 2126 finishers.
2) No one in any age group (mens, or womens) who won the swim, won the race, or placed (except one AG woman)
3) Finishing the swim comfortably is more important than winning the swim. My conclusion.

I would invite anyone to spend a little time going thru any IM race (or half for that matter) and confirm that 1:30 pace is not some pedestrian achievement.
Now for clarity, I must admit I am a shit swimmer and haven't swum below 1:30 for any reasonable distance in 25 years so perhaps I'm just jealous of these studs.
But nothing they had to say helped the OP in slightest.

.
.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that we are saying that, for people coming from a swimming background a 1:30 pace or a 57 min Ironman isn't fast?Nobody is saying that everyone should be able to do that any more than anyone thinks all Ironman bike times should be 4:45 or Ironman marathons sub 3hrs.We are simply stating that triathletes tend not to understand just how fast PURE swimmers are,hell a couple of years ago there was a huge debate here about some people saying that 2min per 100meter swimmers were a bit of a joke and of course the following outrage was epic.
.
Regarding last years Kona swim, Pro Bart Aernouts swam a 57:03 which put him 48th male pro out of 54 (10min behind Frodeno),187th overall and 163rd place male overall.That means 115 male age groupers swam faster than he did and even if you take into account that the pro's have a different wave that is still a really shit swim FOR A PRO. I mean.holy cow, even ST's favourite shit pro swimmer Lionel Sanders swam 52min. ;-)
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Nov 23, 20 16:43
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you wouldn’t want to leave out the World Records the US had at the time in:

Men

100m and 200m Back
200m Breast
100m and 200m Fly
200m and 400m IM
4x100 Free Relay
4x100 Medley Relay

As well as the world championship title in 25k open water (I swam with Chad at SMU).

Janet Evan’s owned every record from 400m through the 1500m. Her coach, Bud McCallister, came out of Mission Viejo which was basically ground zero for high volume training.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Very true.

A few of those others weren't exactly low volume either. Along with Janet (whose well known for her huge volume of training), Tom Dolan comes to mind as a swimmer who trained at similar volume levels to the Aussies (with similar results). Smile

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
dunno wrote:
There is plenty of literature, chat and training advice about going slow to go fast with running.


Does they same hold true for swimming though? A lot of training plans seem to be the complete opposite-lots of short sharp intervals. Why is this? Can you approach swimming in the same way-long comfortable low HR sets with a speed day or two during the week?


In short, yes, you can (& should) absolutely approach swimming the same way.

This post about my time with one of the greatest swimmers of all time offers some more details...

https://alancouzens.com/blog/touretski.html


Alan,

As you know but other most certainly do not, a half decent way to approximate a swimmers base aerobic pace is to do an all out 30 minute swim. The swimmers average pace for the swim is their base pace for a AEROBIC set of 100's. Urbancek took this to a (tortured) extreme using his rainbow charts and interval sendoffs.

So a swimmer doing 3000 yards in 30 minutes would have a T Pace of 1:00 / 100. And their bread and butter set would be hundreds on 1:10 interval with a goal of 1:00 per 100.

There isn't much merit in comparing this to running. Kipchoge does 40 minute aerobic runs of 10km nearly every day at his marathon pace plus 33 +/- 5%. There is NO value of a swimmer taking that kind of approach.

Or consider it from a running point of view: Kipchoge is probably able to hold around 2:48 / km for 30 minutes. If he were to approach his workout like a swimmer he would do 30 x 65 second quarters with :10 rest AS HIS RECOVERY set.

Prior to sprint specialization - which has really put all of this on its head - every elite squad was doing 80-90% of their work in an aerobic zone. That is VERY true and is good advice to anyone who wants to get better. But lets be very clear: in practice this is so unlike "running" it is only worth bringing up in order to say as a way. "yes, but nothing like running!"


AJ,

I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything that you said.

While that may be somewhat common in some American programs, I can assure you it is not what "every elite squad was doing". The vast majority of Popov's work was under 2mmol/L - nowhere near threshold. Ditto for Thorpe, who I also spent time with.

In fact, as I recall, even Urbanchek's program had a whole lot of "white and pink" swimming (1-3mmol/L, 120-150bpm) in it.

IOW, in output terms, very similar to what Kipchoge and pretty much any World Class athlete is doing, i.e. a whole lot of work below VT1.

The reality is that a swimmer only has so many meters at their best 3000m pace in them! It's a little crazy to think that they're going to nail 100K weeks with the bulk at their best 3K pace week after week & stay healthy and improve. That sort of output is just not sustainable - as I also saw first hand in several less successful programs that I was unfortunate enough to be a part of. Smile

I can confirm this. I swam with a girl who went to the Olympics at 15 yrs old in 100 free. Threshold pace was not our bread and butter. A threshold set was a very challenging set and doing 400m intervals at threshold was very hard indeed. We also did what we called 'vo2' sets and prior to big races did broken 100s/200s depending on our event, usually with 5 to 7 secs rest between each 25 or 50, plus sprints. A vo2 set was basically all out. Most of the swimming was at a pace called 'a1' or 'a2'. And the paces were all based on a 30 minute test.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
Very true.

A few of those others weren't exactly low volume either. Along with Janet (whose well known for her huge volume of training), Tom Dolan comes to mind as a swimmer who trained at similar volume levels to the Aussies (with similar results). Smile

I understand that Grant Hackett at his peak didn't actually do THAT much volume when compared to what others were doing in distance events, like what we hear about some of the americans in distance events - who had much poorer results..
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen him go 100k at a distance camp but typical mid-season volume was more in the 70K range.

Whether you call this "not THAT much volume" I guess is a matter of perspective Smile

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
I've seen him go 100k at a distance camp but typical mid-season volume was more in the 70K range.

Whether you call this "not THAT much volume" I guess is a matter of perspective Smile

I was a mediocre distance swimmer at a mediocre (USA) collegiate program, and some of our biggest weeks were 30 hours at camp and 100k. Average was 16 of swimming, 4 lifting and at least 60k, usually 70-80k. So to me. It is crazy that Hackett was doing the same.

Obviously there are tons of other factors besides yardage. Sets, pacing, and that whole 5’7”/170cm thing....

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guy, I said a set of 100s at T30 pace is easy. You are stupidly arguing with me when the very sets and paces I describe are exactly what you report Popov did in your blog.

Here are the facts: popov could hold around 1:04 / for a 30 minute T swim. Popov would do 60-70% of his work at an effort level where his 100 repeats were at 1:04. His 200s for at 2:12 or 1:06 per 100. His longer stuff - typically 800s or so - were at 1:10 pace. I know all this because I have access to his training data. But you aren’t disputing and in fact some of this data is in your own blog.

What you wrote to the OP was hat they should train swimming like running. Swim “slower.” Any runner trying to understand this is going to misinterpret. A long hard run is at 20-30% slower than marathon pace. Maintenance runs are even slower. No good swimmer is training at paces 20-30% slower than their 2:00 hour race pace. This isn’t even a point of contention. We already know and agree: Popov could and would cruise all day at 1:10 (so 8% slower than his 30 minute pace) and could cruise 100s with 15 seconds rest at his T pace.

A runner trying to replicate popovs swim routine wouldn't last a week and a swimmer using a runners approach will never improve.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I would second this. I am on year 5 of 365+ hrs per year of swimming (barely 1 hrs per day). I still have ~6 years to go to get to 6 years of 18 hrs per week to get to that focused time in the pool, but after my "swim penance" in my 50's, I regret I did not do this in my teens, but I see why there are no natural swimmers. Now when people see me swim all 4 strokes they asked me if I swam in my teens and college (the layman may see a "natural born swimmer from the deck"....the clock say its still slow compared to those of you who learned in youth).

Dev

How the heck is it possible for one to train 18 hours per week in swimming while holding a full time job and also training bike / run (or another sport) at national team level?
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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What do you guys think of that video ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LijdyVaaDnY


LOuis :-)
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
Hey guy, I said a set of 100s at T30 pace is easy. You are stupidly arguing with me when the very sets and paces I describe are exactly what you report Popov did in your blog.

Here are the facts: popov could hold around 1:04 / for a 30 minute T swim. Popov would do 60-70% of his work at an effort level where his 100 repeats were at 1:04. His 200s for at 2:12 or 1:06 per 100. His longer stuff - typically 800s or so - were at 1:10 pace. I know all this because I have access to his training data. But you aren’t disputing and in fact some of this data is in your own blog.

What you wrote to the OP was hat they should train swimming like running. Swim “slower.” Any runner trying to understand this is going to misinterpret. A long hard run is at 20-30% slower than marathon pace. Maintenance runs are even slower. No good swimmer is training at paces 20-30% slower than their 2:00 hour race pace. This isn’t even a point of contention. We already know and agree: Popov could and would cruise all day at 1:10 (so 8% slower than his 30 minute pace) and could cruise 100s with 15 seconds rest at his T pace.

A runner trying to replicate popovs swim routine wouldn't last a week and a swimmer using a runners approach will never improve.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?


AJ,

My only point (to the OP) was that yes, just like every other endurance sport, the bulk of your intensity in the water should be low intensity (under 2mmol/L of lactate) NOT at threshold.

I agree with you that, in the water, as a % of your max speed, easy effort will have you moving closer to your max speed than it would be on the run (because of the density of the medium).

That's it. That's all I got. Peace out.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Nov 23, 20 20:07
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
There is plenty of literature, chat and training advice about going slow to go fast with running.

Does they same hold true for swimming though? A lot of training plans seem to be the complete opposite-lots of short sharp intervals. Why is this? Can you approach swimming in the same way-long comfortable low HR sets with a speed day or two during the week?

My household has given two colligate swimmers and one senior level coach. The two swimmers are my children, one swimming for and the other committed for 2021 to a top 5 D2 swimming programs. They both come with vastly different specialty, one middle distance/ distance FR the other BR/IM specialist.
Our club generationally puts out 10-12 collegiate swimmers annually, kids committing from top 20 D1 all the way to D3 programs.
The short answer is no. The complete answer is far more delicate. The swimming development hinges on targeted, incremental and periodized use of swimming technique, racing skill and targeted use of various sets. To develop and progress forward is a constant layering of technique development, followed up by fitness/ strength layering, often times concurrently in the same cycle of focus. The more novice the swimmer is, the more focus goes on fundamentals of stroke construction while allowing simple endurance/fitness gains from skill focused sets. All intensities are used from simple endurance effort to below and above race pace, though cycled throughout the season. The lines get blurry with stroke training where BK trains much like FR and is aerobic in nature. Same cannot be said for FL/BR, that are very anaerobic in nature no matter the technique. So, yes easy FL/BR do not exist and are oxymoron.
BR prefers component training and frequent efforts at race pace, similar to FL. Component training refers to back or front of stroke, timing and stroke rate. So BR and FL train with typically shorter distance intervals, short to moderate rest at or near the race pace due to stroke mechanics. Historically, in the past, some coaches have asked of swimmers repeats of 800+ FL or BR, however that methodology today is less prevalent.
FR and BK can be trained with fair amounts of easier to moderate efforts, medium to long intervals any time in season. They will produce aerobic development effects if trained at low intensities in sufficient amounts. Average triathlete does not train with sufficient pool frequency and duration to solely hinge development on easy FR swimming. Variety is key and focus does shift from general to specific, early season to late season.
Yep a bunch of general stuff but cannot use forum for detailed script in seasonal swim training for triathletes.
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