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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Mark S] [ In reply to ]
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What is "pedal work"??? Do you mean "paddle work"???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, sorry. Too much bike talk this week!

We'll do fin on right foot and paddle on left hand. Then switch. Then both.

Mark Saroni
____________________________________________________________
COACHING | TRAINING PLANS
MS Kinesiology | USAT LII | USAC L3
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Mark S] [ In reply to ]
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Mark S wrote:
Yeah, sorry. Too much bike talk this week!

We'll do fin on right foot and paddle on left hand. Then switch. Then both.

Interesting, I can't recall having seen anyone doing this sort of thing but I have heard of it. Thanks for the info.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
@velocibuddha -

Honest question, how did your swimming hold up after a prolonged break in COVID? I'm sure it comes back fast for an ex-D1 swimmer, but curious as to how things held up over all that time for you given your deep background in technical swimming.

Yeah.

I did no swimming from March- August.
No open pools!!

Master's swimming was the only option in August.

When I got back in the water- even very low yardage made me very tired.

But my overall conditioning recovered really quickly (with the higher intensity more varied masters program).

This fast improvement came at the expense of making me tired on the run and bike.

With the master's swimming program I have been doing I feel that:
1) My swim speed and power is probably the best it has been in years.
2) My ability to swim a fast 500 or 1650 is NOT better.
But probably not worse.
3) Once or twice a month I try to out swim an older but probably faster (ex-D1 swimmer) and I am totally wrecked for a couple of days.

In summary:
I have been doing more intense, more varied training, with slightly less yardage.
It has only been 3 months but I feel I am a little faster than ever (post college) in 50- 200 free.
A lot faster in IM, breast, fly.
I have a stronger core (from lots of butterfly kick) and am probably stronger in most other ways also.

I doubt my 500 or 1660 would be much faster.

And my running and cycling has been more inconsistent because of being tired from swimming.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
I am an aging triathlete who swam D1 in college.
I have spent 90% of my triathlon career doing slow, moderately long yardage.
I have recently started training with a master's swim team that has other ex- D1 swimmers.

Here are some relevant comments:
1) It is not going to be possible to develop good swimming technique by consistently swimming slow.
2) If, however, you were once a reasonably fast swimmer- it is possible to get into the shape required to swim tolerably slow - by just doing easy swimming. And that is good enough for triathlon- where fast swimming is not important.

Masters swimming:
1) Lot's of fast swimming of different varieties- sprinting, kicking hard, breaststroke, longer distances of butterfly (etc)-
This stuff is really tiring (even in small doses).
This stuff appears to do wonders for overall strength, swimming power and form.
2) Hard aerobic swim sets where you are racing other ex-D1 swimmers- are super duper exhausting and definitely mess with one's ability to run and cycle.

Bottom line - I feel that master's swimming has made me faster with a lower investment of time.
On the other hand, the investment of training stress has been considerable and needs to be balanced carefully with hard cycling and running.

True that intense workouts make you faster but who can keep those up year after year over say 30-40 years after the end of their youth swimming "career"??? I think it is pretty much impossible to keep getting psyched up every day over the decades and a few intense yrs must be counter-balanced by some yrs of long easy swimming. Also, kinda sorta in this vein, I've read in some swimming news story that some European pro swimmers do lots of long easy sets for around 90% of their training, and then just ramp it up for some really fast race pace swimming as part of 1-2 workouts per week. This helps them extend their careers [which are actual careers:)] into their 30s. The Hungarian IM/Flier Laszlo Cseh is said to train this way and he managed a few medals at the '16 Oly and '15 Worlds despite being 29-30. He is still training and aiming for the '21 Games where he will be 35.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
I am an aging triathlete who swam D1 in college.
I have spent 90% of my triathlon career doing slow, moderately long yardage.

Sounds like you are the PERFECT case for doing just that. Highly skilled swimmers can definitely benefit from long/slow. D1 college swimmer is far above 95% of triathletes. Maybe 99%.

I was a mediocre JV freestyler in high school. I swam 2.5 months per year. PR was something like 1:07 in a 100-yd from start blocks. I have gotten worse since then. I still finish top half of the swim in smaller sprint triathlons.

My point is, unless you're highly skilled and already finishing top 5% in the swim at every triathlon you do, slow swimming is pretty useless and often detrimental to rate of progress.

Caveat: if you're literally prepping for a triathlon next week/month and you haven't touched the water in months. (as is my current 2020/covid scenario! Wish me luck!)

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Dilbert wrote:

If you are swimming slower than 1:30/100 your technique is awful. In that case about 50% of all your time in the pool should be spent on drills. And hire a coach. And have a video taken of your technique to analyze.

Real swimmers can effortlessly glide through the water, I mean just no effort at all, faster than 1:30/100.


Sorry does that mean cruising speed or all out 100 m?
Last edited by: miklcct: Nov 19, 20 12:54
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.

I'm sure there are quite a few comp swimmers who can cruise all day at 1:20/meters and it literally feels pretty easy for them.

Kinda like a 6:50min/mile pace is literally Z1 recovery pace for elite marathon runners and top shorter distance runners.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
cloy wrote:
I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.

I'm sure there are quite a few comp swimmers who can cruise all day at 1:20/meters and it literally feels pretty easy for them.

Kinda like a 6:50min/mile pace is literally Z1 recovery pace for elite marathon runners and top shorter distance runners.

Heh I tried to force train that run pace knowing that is their easy pace, and i ended up being a train wreck
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
lightheir wrote:
cloy wrote:
I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.

I'm sure there are quite a few comp swimmers who can cruise all day at 1:20/meters and it literally feels pretty easy for them.

Kinda like a 6:50min/mile pace is literally Z1 recovery pace for elite marathon runners and top shorter distance runners.

Heh I tried to force train that run pace knowing that is their easy pace, and i ended up being a train wreck

When I was in college I once swam:
40 x 100 yds on 1:10
20 x 100 yds on 1:05
20 x 100 yds on 1:00

I was a mediocre distance guy, at a mediocre D1 college.

I would be happy today if I could swim:
5 × 100 on 1:30 averaging 1:05
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
synthetic wrote:
lightheir wrote:
cloy wrote:
I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.


I'm sure there are quite a few comp swimmers who can cruise all day at 1:20/meters and it literally feels pretty easy for them.

Kinda like a 6:50min/mile pace is literally Z1 recovery pace for elite marathon runners and top shorter distance runners.


Heh I tried to force train that run pace knowing that is their easy pace, and i ended up being a train wreck


When I was in college I once swam:
40 x 100 yds on 1:10
20 x 100 yds on 1:05
20 x 100 yds on 1:00

I was a mediocre distance guy, at a mediocre D1 college.

I would be happy today if I could swim:
5 × 100 on 1:30 averaging 1:05

So I'd assume it isn't a technique problem hindering you today, but a fitness problem? So I guess this is why I get confused-why cant swim fitness be built the same way as run and ride, are there physiological differences?
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
Dilbert wrote:


If you are swimming slower than 1:30/100 your technique is awful. In that case about 50% of all your time in the pool should be spent on drills. And hire a coach. And have a video taken of your technique to analyze.

Real swimmers can effortlessly glide through the water, I mean just no effort at all, faster than 1:30/100.


Sorry does that mean cruising speed or all out 100 m?

.
.
1:30 per 100meters is 4kph which is effortless gliding speed for decent pure open water swimmers and translates to a 57:00 min Ironman swim
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Nov 19, 20 15:31
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:
synthetic wrote:
lightheir wrote:
cloy wrote:
I think he means 1:30 per 100/yard... If it's 100/m, I'm in trouble.


I'm sure there are quite a few comp swimmers who can cruise all day at 1:20/meters and it literally feels pretty easy for them.

Kinda like a 6:50min/mile pace is literally Z1 recovery pace for elite marathon runners and top shorter distance runners.


Heh I tried to force train that run pace knowing that is their easy pace, and i ended up being a train wreck


When I was in college I once swam:
40 x 100 yds on 1:10
20 x 100 yds on 1:05
20 x 100 yds on 1:00

I was a mediocre distance guy, at a mediocre D1 college.

I would be happy today if I could swim:
5 × 100 on 1:30 averaging 1:05


So I'd assume it isn't a technique problem hindering you today, but a fitness problem? So I guess this is why I get confused-why cant swim fitness be built the same way as run and ride, are there physiological differences?


I did the above workout when I was 20. I had been training 80,000 yds/wk from the age of 11. I am now almost 50 and only swimming 14,000 yds/wk.
I could probably swim more, swim harder, swim harder and longer. And all of these things would make me faster. (But I also got to run, bike and work).

I think elite swimmers can handle higher volume AND higher intensity than elite runners.

I also think stroke changes with different speeds. That it is thus necessary to do as much fast swimming as possible to lock in the higher speed stroke.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Nov 19, 20 16:00
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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A 57 min swim at Mont Tremblant 2018 (the year I did the race) would have put the swimmer in 81 st place, out of 2675 competitors. (he came 3rd overall)
Or
57 th place in IM Florida (2019) and 17th overall.
or
66th in IM Canada the year I did the race, for a guy who came 13th overall

So really?

57 mins

This is easy?
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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michael Hatch wrote:
A 57 min swim at Mont Tremblant 2018 (the year I did the race) would have put the swimmer in 81 st place, out of 2675 competitors. (he came 3rd overall)
Or
57 th place in IM Florida (2019) and 17th overall.
or
66th in IM Canada the year I did the race, for a guy who came 13th overall

So really?

57 mins

This is easy?

For a world-class elite pure swimmer, this very would could be easy.

For everyone else, including (most?) pro triathletes, heck no, not easy!
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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michael Hatch wrote:
A 57 min swim at Mont Tremblant 2018 (the year I did the race) would have put the swimmer in 81 st place, out of 2675 competitors. (he came 3rd overall)
Or
57 th place in IM Florida (2019) and 17th overall.
or
66th in IM Canada the year I did the race, for a guy who came 13th overall

So really?

57 mins

This is easy?
.
.
.
How about you actually read what I wrote...

"1:30 per 100meters is 4kph which is effortless gliding speed for decent pure open water swimmers and translates to a 57:00 min Ironman swim"

So to break it down for you....The 1:30 per 100metere is effortless for a decent PURE OPEN WATER SWIMMER and is about 20 sec per 100meters slower than race pace for 10K Open Water swimming events.So yes, it is effortless pace for PURE OPEN WATER SWIMMERS.

That pace also translates (FOR TRIATHLETES REFERENCE/COMPARISON) to a 57min Ironman swim (which is easy for most male pro's)Hell I've even done that.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
michael Hatch wrote:
A 57 min swim at Mont Tremblant 2018 (the year I did the race) would have put the swimmer in 81 st place, out of 2675 competitors. (he came 3rd overall)
Or
57 th place in IM Florida (2019) and 17th overall.
or
66th in IM Canada the year I did the race, for a guy who came 13th overall

So really?

57 mins

This is easy?

For a world-class elite pure swimmer, this very would could be easy.

For everyone else, including (most?) pro triathletes, heck no, not easy!

For me - 53 in Kona (with surf, without wetsuit)- that's pretty hard.

57 with a wetsuit and with no surf- There would be NO point in going that easy!
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
miklcct wrote:
Dilbert wrote:


If you are swimming slower than 1:30/100 your technique is awful. In that case about 50% of all your time in the pool should be spent on drills. And hire a coach. And have a video taken of your technique to analyze.

Real swimmers can effortlessly glide through the water, I mean just no effort at all, faster than 1:30/100.


Sorry does that mean cruising speed or all out 100 m?

.
.
1:30 per 100meters is 4kph which is effortless gliding speed for decent pure open water swimmers and translates to a 57:00 min Ironman swim


That's insane. This speed will be well in the top lane in my squad. You are telling that 3/4 of my club are rubbish swimmers.

And how's a pure open water swimmer different from a triathlete? If someone who mainly focuses on open water marathon swimming, but also keeps running training at decent level using triathlons as a mean of cross-training between swimming and running, is he a pure open water swimmer or a triathlete?
Last edited by: miklcct: Nov 19, 20 19:09
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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What I love about this page is the number of people who are anonymous bullshitters.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
miklcct wrote:
Dilbert wrote:


If you are swimming slower than 1:30/100 your technique is awful. In that case about 50% of all your time in the pool should be spent on drills. And hire a coach. And have a video taken of your technique to analyze.

Real swimmers can effortlessly glide through the water, I mean just no effort at all, faster than 1:30/100.


Sorry does that mean cruising speed or all out 100 m?

.
.
1:30 per 100meters is 4kph which is effortless gliding speed for decent pure open water swimmers and translates to a 57:00 min Ironman swim


That's insane. This speed will be well in the top lane in my squad. You are telling that 3/4 of my club are rubbish swimmers.

And how's a pure open water swimmer different from a triathlete? If someone who mainly focuses on open water marathon swimming, but also keeps running training at decent level using triathlons as a mean of cross-training between swimming and running, is he a pure open water swimmer or a triathlete?

.
.
Look at the results of these pure swimmers and tell me who in your squad could keep up for 100meters let alone 10K.
(Bear in mind that a 10K swim done in 2:00:00 is 5kph or 1:12 per 100 meters.)
The winner of this race did 1:49:25 (1:05 per 100 meter pace)while 25 others went under 2hrs which is 1:12/100m or a 41:30 Ironman pace.


https://cdn.swimswam.com/...10k-overall-male.pdf
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Nov 19, 20 20:36
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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michael Hatch wrote:
What I love about this page is the number of people who are anonymous bullshitters.

Please tell me where I have bullshitted about anything on this thread?
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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My sincere and humble apologies.
Obviously the OP can and will learn at your feet.
You added so much to his knowledge and confidence about pure swimmers.
Now that they know what a pure swimmer should be like they can model themselves on that or take up tennis..
Once again please accept my abject (grovel grovel) and sincere admission of guilt in questioning your wisdom in projecting minimum standards of excellence.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I think this makes a ton of sense.

Swimming is fluid dynamics and:

Drag power = 1/2 \rho C_d A v^3 = thrust power

still applies as it does in cycling (for form drag at least; wave drag is an even steeper penalty for going fast especially for the fastest swimmers who are near human body hull speed!). Density is ~1000x higher in water than air, C_d A is probably several times lower for (good) swimming than (good aero position) cycling, but power is also likely several times lower for athletes who are balanced across both sports; humans are not built for upper-body aerobic power nearly as well as lower-body aerobic power. If the power and C_d A ratios cycling:swimming are roughly equal, then you'd expect swimming to be about (1000)^(1/3) times slower than cycling -- or ~1 m/s ~ 3.6 km/hr instead of 10 m/s ~ 36 km/hr. Simply put, power matters.

Most triathletes (myself included) just haven't trained enough to come close to fully developing their aerobically sustainable upper body power. It's not an easy crossover from the other disciplines or from everyday life activities like walking or climbing stairs, the way lower-body aerobic power is. The extra wrinkle is that in swimming you can fail at applying power meaningfully, as well as failing to be streamlined, and it's often not obvious this is happening -- hence "form" is not just how you reduce drag, it's also how you increase thrust for a given muscular power output.

I would be willing to wager, like lightheir, that if a swimmer can sustainably generate 80W+ of upper-body pull power and at least do a decent job directing that thrust backwards rather than in random directions, and can stay reasonably flat in the water, then they will be decently fast. Put most triathletes on a Vasa and they'll probably struggle to hold half of this power.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
.
.
Look at the results of these pure swimmers and tell me who in your squad could keep up for 100meters let alone 10K.
(Bear in mind that a 10K swim done in 2:00:00 is 5kph or 1:12 per 100 meters.)
The winner of this race did 1:49:25 (1:05 per 100 meter pace)while 25 others went under 2hrs which is 1:12/100m or a 41:30 Ironman pace.


https://cdn.swimswam.com/...10k-overall-male.pdf

Is anyone of them a triathlete?
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