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GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes fast?
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Believe it or not, I would like to offer the slowtwitch and triath- community something besides pure hate: an informative report on the aerodynamic state of the new vs. old in triathlon bikes. The medium will be the A2 wind tunnel in early March, and you will fund the research and the equipment requirements to facilitate same. If you won't/don't, hey, you know what, fuck you too...I'll keep it all to myself.

The bikes tested in both rider on and rider off configurations are as follows:
  • 2013 (but really, 2008? 2007?) Felt B2. This bike will have the finest aerodynamic goods: market-leading aero rim brake, both front and rear; market-leading and tunnel-tested base bar; and best-practice nutrition/storage setup
  • Diamondback Andean with every practical variable normalize -- group, cassette, extensions, wheels(?) -- except for base bar, which would be an integrative disaster on this bike
  • Premier Tactical with...same as above except that it has proprietary base bar and extensions -- the former is acceptable, the latter is not, so we'll need to figure that one out
  • [P5 / P5-X, outfitted with, same, if provided]

To clarify key items:
  • This is not manufacturer sponsored testing in the monetary sense

    • I fronted the money for the Andean, identical components vis-a-vis the B2, build, et al
    • Dan Kennison of the Tactical jawn has committed to providing with identical setup and componentry to the aforementioned
  • This will be as objective and precise and scientific as is realistically attainable, and there will be multiple third parties to ensure and verify, including Kennison
  • X/Y tolerance shall be controlled to the nearest millimeter (if funded)

The quid pro quo for the GoFundMe is this:
  • You crowd fund this whole shit with money, which buys:

    • Tunnel time at A2
    • Travel with multiple bikes and one mechanic to North Carolina, plus related expenses
    • X/Y tool to verify tolerances
  • You GoLendMe by providing what I cannot afford to furnish -- Enve 7.8 SES rim brake clinchers (2016-17), which is a match to the Andean wheelset I will test that has hub-disc rotors and +4 spokes on the front (whatup Tom A)
  • You give feedback here as to best-in-class protocol, and all opinions are encouraged
  • I issue a Coggan-like pompous, long-form scientific report that will be available to

    • All backers, though if goal is unmet, then privately and with a confidentiality covenant (a la Friction Facts)
    • All of slowtwitch, if goal is met
  • I develop and offer for download a full-on Excel file/quant model that takes inputs from the testing and inputs from you (speed, distance, etc.) -- a poor man's Best Bike Split model, if you will -- and outputs an estimation of time losses (i.e. by being a triath-lemming and buying Jordan Rapp's all-new, slow bicycle with entirely unnecessary disc brakes and trash cans and shit)
  • [The P5 or P5-X will only be tested if someone can provide me with a size that can match coordinates, with same components or set up in a way that could allow for transfer of equivalent parts]

And one last point. I personally do not care what the answer is. I do not care who wins. The bicycle that reigns the bicycle I will ride in 2017 -- and it may be the bicycle you ought to consider too.

Finally, I post this prior to cementing the protocol so I can crowd source opinions on that, even as I have my own thoughts and the thoughts of those who know much better. Looking forward to your own.

Here's the link to the GoFundMe thing



Last edited by: Slowman: Mar 1, 17 15:02
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I was wondering when you might do something like this

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Can I send you my Speed Concept (7-series first gen with Ventus/Omega) to test instead if the Felt?

Slowtwitch loves Speed Concepts.

I'll pay shipping.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking of doing this same thing. I think I mentioned it on here at some point 3-4 months ago. Kudos to you for following through and executing this.

I'll send you some money.

When in March are you going? If I can swing it, I may want to join if you want some help.

blog
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Done.

But nothing to lend. The Tactical is a solid score. Super interested to see how it does.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Shouldn't a decked out P2/3 be the control bike?
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
Done.

But nothing to lend. The Tactical is a solid score. Super interested to see how it does.

You actually did donate. Wow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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I'd donate to anyone attempting this. But I also happen to know who he'll be working with on the protocol. Which gives me confidence in the data produced.

Plus, it's super fucking interesting. Newest disc brake bike on the block. Against a well designed tactical. And an option from yesteryear. Which actually might be most interesting. What the delta is between something like a B2 and an Andean.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Done.

Would you be willing to test some of the aero-helmet options as well? Giro Advantage 2, Rudy Wingspan/Wing-57, KASK, etc?
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I have been wanting to do this for a long (years) time. Testing the super bikes via some sort of crowd funding at A2. But, I never did it. Excited to see this develop!
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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done. looking forward to hearing the results. my money is on the Tactical.

----
@adamwfurlong
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Consultri] [ In reply to ]
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Consultri wrote:
Done.

Would you be willing to test some of the aero-helmet options as well? Giro Advantage 2, Rudy Wingspan/Wing-57, KASK, etc?

That would be pointless as I assume you're interested on your behalf? No point in testing helmets on PV to use the data for yourself. What you would be interested in is the deltas between the bike and wheel testing.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Consultri] [ In reply to ]
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Consultri wrote:
Done.

Would you be willing to test some of the aero-helmet options as well? Giro Advantage 2, Rudy Wingspan/Wing-57, KASK, etc?

helmets are one of the most individual things to test. if wanted to crowd source that, i'd tell him to take a hike, because the data that he would share would literally have no value to anyone that donated.

but off that list, the general trend is that the advantage 2 is good, and the rest are bad. but whether that applies to you is completely unknown until you go in the tunnel.

----
@adamwfurlong
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Shouldn't a decked out P2/3 be the control bike?

In a situation/context like this I think it's a much better idea to test roughly "off the shelf" bikes. The B2 is a good outlier from that because it basically takes an older generation non super bike and tricks it out. So you can test the best of the rest (maybe similar if you took a "classic" P3 which might be what you mean although I doubt it) vs. the current gen of self-proclaimed superbikes.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be there on the 8th as well. I'll have my size large Speed Concept in tow along with a Jet 9/Disc rear and a Zipp 404 NSW front. Might bring my Shiv (size L as well) with Alpha/Omega X build as well. I'm probably going to chip you some cash just because I'm curious to see how the Andean performs.

The next couple of months are going to be very interesting for aero data.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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If you could get enough funding for additional tunnel time/another bike, would you be up for testing other bikes?

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Done... looking forward to seeing the results.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Donation posted. Looking forward to seeing the results.

Let's go all you DMDs - just expense to your private practice P&L
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:

  • You GoLendMe by providing what I cannot afford to furnish -- Enve 7.8 SES rim brake clinchers (2016-17), which is a match to the Andean wheelset I will test that has hub-disc rotors and +4 spokes on the front (whatup Tom)

Whatup! :-)

You know...if you test with the Hed Jet6+ blacks that come with the Andean, I could probably let you borrow my set of rim brake versions...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom trying to skew the data in favor of rim brakes already.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:

  • You GoLendMe by providing what I cannot afford to furnish -- Enve 7.8 SES rim brake clinchers (2016-17), which is a match to the Andean wheelset I will test that has hub-disc rotors and +4 spokes on the front (whatup Tom)

Whatup! :-)

You know...if you test with the Hed Jet6+ blacks that come with the Andean, I could probably let you borrow my set of rim brake versions...

I like that idea

Not sure why they'd be needed but I'll be up there with my Jet arsenal in tow (Jet 4+ front, H3+ front, Jet 9+ rear, Jet Disc rear).
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [davews09] [ In reply to ]
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davews09 wrote:
Tom trying to skew the data in favor of rim brakes already.

I just about spit my coffee out laughing

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [davews09] [ In reply to ]
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davews09 wrote:
Tom trying to skew the data in favor of rim brakes already.

Why? Because ENVE claims they made the disc version of the rim used in that wheelset more aero than the rim braked version? Where's the data backing up that claim? I haven't seen it...have you?

The only data we've seen on those rims is that the rims alone are ~60g less mass total ...(big whoop, ~1/4 of that reduction is going to be added back with the 4 extra spokes on the front alone, not to mention the mass of the separate braking disc and hardware)

So no...not trying to skew...just trying to ensure a good apples-to-apples comparison, and I KNOW he'll have the Jets that come with the bike, and I KNOW I have the Jets as well. So, offering that combo has a higher likelihood of succeeding than trying to find someone to lend the SES 7.8s.

Please...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you're right, no data. But the ENVE Disc's certainly pass the eye test for whatever that's worth - I have a set of 4.5AR Discs and the rim edges meet the tire so flush you'd swear I had Mavic rim strip jawns installed (which we know result in an aero system).

Perhaps ENVE will lend a set? Publius - you should reach out.
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Re: GoFundMe / GoLendMe : Are disc brakes slow? Is rappstar's new TT bike an aerodynamic atrocity? Do double diamonds triumph? [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:
If you could get enough funding for additional tunnel time/another bike, would you be up for testing other bikes?

For sure. I think the current goal can accommodate cost for four hours as well as the equipment bits and pieces that we'll need to do it all right -- that's the big reason for the lofty goal. But, the logistical nightmare will scale non-linearly, because I'm not buying multiple sets of extensions, Di2 brifter/shifters etc. And that will need to be swapped over if not standardized across the board.

A few have offered Speed Concept, P2/P3, etc. -- all good things. But keep in mind what will be required to normalize the variables. Is that SC7 a small? Does it have the mono thing that allows for third party extensions? Does it have a low near stem?

By the way, any of these bikes can be the "control". The results are all relative to each other. Whichever set of data (i.e. which bike) you want to set as the baseline, you can. That said, I really would love to have a 'default' baseline bike that has been broadly tested, which is to say, a SC or a P5. But as of yet, I don't. For those who've asked, 51 P5.

Thanks for the support thus far, everyone
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