Tom i do not think its the PCs people are looking at,its your name,you have four posts now with 715 views on your girlfriends HR,You could post that you have a pimple and you would get 200 views,People want to hear what you have to say.When are you getting a agent?

It's actually pretty incredible how much he has changed the forum culture. I read both this forum and www.trinewbies.com. Before Tom showed up, everytime anyone asked about which bike to buy, the issue of fit hardly ever appeared. Now, that is all the advice that anyone gives, and it hardly ever is addressed with "get the one that 'feels' the best," it's always, "get a professional fitting". Also, his reviews are mentioned all over the place as a resource. That guy should get an agent, there's got to be an increase in sales everytime he endorses a product.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Well, I am one of the few people brave (stupid, naive, whatever...) enough to post some fairly personal stuff and people seem to like to read it for some reason. Hopefully it is providing a usable service to other people with similar concerns. Or maybe people just like to see it for entertainment purposes... also OK. I don't know why people look at my stuff. Probably because about 8% of the posts on this forum are mine. I post a lot. But you know, this is my business- how I make my living, etc., I post when nothing else is going on (like late at night and early in the morning today), I like the people on the forum and the information is pretty valuable to me and hopefully others. Everybody is kind, respectful and helpful. Look at all the thoughtful, helpful things people posted about my girlfriend's heart rate. That takes time and I appreciate it , so does she. Anyway, thanks for your kind words.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

 
Two reasons I don't have PC's. The main one is the price, that is a lot of money for some of us. I am a grad student and $800 bucks isn't something that I can spare right now, I have a hard enough time paying for the races. The other reason is that I only have one bike and if I don't want to use the PCs all the time (or race with them) I would have to pull them of and put them on, not something I want to do all that often. Just my thoughts.

A

Two valid concerns....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Is there any definative studies that show power and speed improvements directly related to Power Cranks useage? I have tried them briefly, but I am still a bit confused here. It seems as though the only positive feedback I hear are from retailers, the manufacturer, and athletes who represent the manufacturer.

I have read independant reviews from VeloNews and Coach Gordo that say althought a great tool to add to your training, overall PC claims are false and the marketing practice of Power Cranks is questionable. According to PC guidelines to get claimed results you must complete all training on the PCs. What roadie pros are using them in 100% of their training I wonder?

Gary, I am not sure what your problem is with PC...
you got a very good deal on them from Frank, if you used them exclusively. you didn't give the product a chance. and now you just put a lot of crap on the PC any time you have a chance.

OK, I am representing PC. Each time someone from this forum asked me if I paid for them, I was entirely honest, and didn't lie. I had solid road races that motivated Frank to help me and I thank him for this.

However, I am also a university prof. my salary is fairly decent, and I have the luxury to choose what I want. This means that if I thought PC were not worth it, I would send them back and say it openly.

As for the pros cyclists, I am going to France soon, and will talk to my ex teammates about PC. For "real" pros, I have seen the results pre and post powercranks of Daniele Nardello, and there were no doubts whatsoever of their positive effect...

Now, believe what you want re. the PC. However, considering (if I remember well) your best 40kmTT is 56' you would be in the time zone that would greatly benefit of the product...you had your chance, let it slipped, too bad for you...

gary,

You misinterpret much. You state my marketing claims are false but were given the opportunity to test whether they are false or not but decided not too. Unfortunately, to attain the marketing claims requires exclusive use, at least for awhile and you refused to do that. Otherwise, I expected the benefits you would see would equal those seen by the other "reviewers" you mentioned. Such "reviews" get used against me by the naysayers, such as you, and I don't need more of them.

Perhaps you could clarify exactly which athletes you were referring to who "represent the manufacturer" who speak highly of them. I know of none.

I know of one roadie "pro" who uses the cranks exclusively. At least he told me he was turning pro this season. He intends to race on them this season so that their "benefit" in the real world should be more apparent, whether he gets a pro contract or not. I know of one other US pro champion (yes champion) who uses them A LOT, at least in the off season and has for about 3 years. I think he is considering some racing on them, at least for time trials, this season. Further, I don't understand why it is something "negative" that Aerts, or Bettini, or Museeuw, or Garzelli, or Evans, (or many others) do not use them as I recommend that ordinary people use them to get the most out of them. Isn't it enough that they are using them?

Or is it false advertising that I was only able to increase Francois CP30 only 7% when I claim 40% in most people. Isn't it interesting that his time trial time improvement calculates to almost the exact same power improvement. Most people are not starting at Francois' level. Most people at Francois' level would be happy with a 1% improvement. 7% is huge and I expect more (hopefully, eventually, 40%).

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

1. those "reviews" that get used against me are generally all positive. Just less positive than one would expect for my claims.

2. For you to improve from a 40k TT from 56 minutes to 50 minutes requires a 40% increase in power (or other improvements such as aerodynamics or favorable winds) Good luck. We await your report.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Sorry, I don't have the answer on definitive studies peformed, but I can share my experience briefly.

I saw comments about Powercranks last year on this board and thought, with a 60day guarantee, why not try it. I received mine the second week of December 02. I ride an 18mile each way commute to work, as I don't own a car. I also ride between 50-150mi on the weekends. I had these installed on my Cervelo P3, which I do most of my riding on. The first week was humbling, humiliating, very difficult. I could ride them, but it took all of my concentration and wore me out more than anything ever has before. I stayed the course, riding them exclusively, hoping for maximum benefit and quick adjustment to them. By weeks three and four, it felt natural, almost easy- at least compared to the beginning. I also run 40-70 miles/wk, and by week four my running was faster and felt stronger with less effort, and a lower heartrate for a given effort. I have to qualify the run benefit by stating that about the same time I began running using the Pose method. Now I've been riding with the Powercranks for 2.5 months. My hip flexors have definitely become much stronger. I recently ran a 5k at 15min flat, down from 16.30 in beginning of December. I can ride the weekend 70mi group ride easily. I did begin with a very low cadence, but now my optimum cadence appears to be only slightly lower than pre-PowerCranks, in the range of 80-85rpm. For hills and rollers, I can easily wind it up to 90-95 and stay there. I started in a rather upright riding position, but I'm getting used to being on the aerobars now. It takes some getting used to.

As for riding them exclusively, that's only a suggestion. Many people have been using them exclusively to start, then using them for half of their riding time. I might begin doing so and see how it goes. Are they a valuable tool, once you adjust to them? For me, a definite yes. I plan to race with them in tris, duathlons and time trials. Almost every day, I get a brick workout in, riding home and then jumping into my running shoes all warmed up. I feel like my main muscle groups, quads and hamstrings, recover more easily and quickly using Powercranks. They force you to pedal more efficiently, and so your legs don't feel as shot. It seems that my hip flexors recover quickly also.

Sorry they didn't work out for you, Gary. I too think that Frank could show a little more discretion on this board and on his website, but I think I can understand his quandry. These things are amazing, at least for most people. And Gary, I love the new http://www.timetrial.org website! I love time trialing and look forward to seeing you add more content. I might even make it out to SoCal for some trials, maybe Fiesta Island? Take care.

Regards,

Daniel Banks.

I could not care less what roadie pros do or don't do. I'm not a roadie pro. Their pedal strokes may be nearly perfect, mine isn't. PC's help me to develop my pedal stroke to increase efficiency...which should increase speed or decrease HR at a given speed. PLUS, the running benefits are almost immediate...again, I don't care what the top runners in the world are doing...I'm not a top-level runner.

For the AVERAGE triathlete, (I'm not average, I am better than average...much better than average if you take out my only slightly-better-than-average swim), I think the PC claims are accurate. I hope to gain about half of the speed Dr. Day claims in my first year of using PC's..because I am starting from a better-than-average position. Even if I don't, I'm gaining more running benefits than I ever imagined...in only two month's usage, to me, that is worth at least another mph on the bike split.

ALREADY, using my resistance trainer, in a 53x14 gear, my max speed with PC's is 40.5 mph. Using the same length regular crankset on the same trainer in a 53x14, my max speed is only 34.5 mph. SO..., I am faster on PC's at maximum effort. I don't know how submaximal efforts compare, I was going to do that this past week, but I came down with the flu.

However, next week, I plan to put on regular cranks and find a gearing that, while on my trainer, puts my HR right below 150...I'll aim for 145, because cardiac drift will cause it to ease upwards during the hour. I'll do this at rpm's of 80-85...because that's where I raced my best time trials last year, and that's about where I'm able to ride PC's at the moment without having to stop to rest my hip flexors.

I will ride for one hour. During that hour, if my HR goes above 150 I will stop pedaling until my HR drops to 140 and start pedaling again. Then I'll see how far I go (I have a rear mounted odometer). The next day, I'll repeat the test with PC's. During both of these tests I will be on the hoods, because I cannot stay in a "best aero" position on PC's for very long at this stage. If there is a significant difference in distance traveled using these two crank systems under these conditions, I'll report it.

I've had them 2 months and 2 days. I'm curious if I'm more efficient on PC's than regular cranks during a sustained effort, not just a top-speed sprint...PC's won that test. One big problem with this test, is: am I now pedaling better on regular cranks than I used to because of PC's? There is no way to know. I would have had to do this test Pre-PC. Still, it will be interesting to know if I'm more efficient on one set over the other at this early stage...because I have a race coming up in one month.

I just past my 60 day free trial period. Did I think about returning them? Let me paraphrase Charlton Heston, I'll surrender my PC's when "...they pry my cold, dead fingers off of them!"

PS, I'm an age-group podium-finishing triathlete beginning my third year of triathlons, and I'm not sponsored by PC's in any way.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

My predictions:

1. The PC's will be faster similar to your top speed difference. So you should go about 17% further (or faster) on the PC's. This will be the best "evidence" yet to support my contention that one should race on the cranks. If some other result occurs I will probably go back to my previous recommendation that people race on regular cranks.

2. If you repeat the test in 6 months you will still be faster on PC's but not by as much.

3. Eventually, you should be the same on both cranks. Once that happens your brain is truly changed. How long that takes is the question that needs to be answered. I suspect it is at least 2 years, maybe as long as 5. Or, it may never occur. I don't know. It is clearly longer than I thought it would be.

I look forward to your report.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

represents a 60% increase in maximum power! Damn, maybe I will have to increase my claims :-)

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

"I will ride for one hour. During that hour, if my HR goes above 150 I will stop pedaling until my HR drops to 140 and start pedaling again. Then I'll see how far I go (I have a rear mounted odometer). The next day, I'll repeat the test with PC's. During both of these tests I will be on the hoods, because I cannot stay in a "best aero" position on PC's for very long at this stage. If there is a significant difference in distance traveled using these two crank systems under these conditions, I'll report it."


Talon is going to do this test comparing PC's to regular cranks and I made my prediction. It would be interesting if you two could do it also (or something similar) and report as you both are well adapted but have had different time on the cranks (6 months and 20 months about. It would be interesting to see what the difference is in you two, if it is narrowing with time (as I predict).

It ain't scientific, as someone is sure to point out, but it is data.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

You got it all wrong, I explained how I was going to use them to Frank before the deal was made, then afterwards Frank said I had to use them all the time except when racing, I could not do that so I sent them back - it didnt work out - thats all. I dont have anything against them, I think they are a great tool, its the marketing practices that I object to, namely on this board, I'm fed up with all the indirect PC ads, its getting worse, following Coggan - I'm out of here, moving on to another board without the PC propaganda, I agree with the findings of Lennard Zinn, Coach Gordo and Coggan ... the PC marketing has got me turned off this board.

Enjoy, and happy training.

Gary

www.timetrial.org

I have to say that I am amazed when I herd so many opinions about PCs on this forum that I called around to a number of reputable shops to find out what they thought about them and get some price quotes. Very few of these supposed well known Tri shops throughout North America were not familiar with PCs. i double checked at each shop to make sure they inquired with various staff and to recontact me (this included a well known shop in San Diego that starts with a N---o and a shop owned by Troy Jacobsen among others who never herd of them). Most individuals/shop personnel did not know about them and those who did reported that while they were an interesting concept they did not know if they were worth the investment. Many suggested that rollers and one leg drills on a turbo trainer would offer similar benefits for those with poor spin mechanics. Tom I did not contact your shop because I knew that you sold them and were familiar...I was just trying to get an outside opinion initially from some folks here in Virginia that I train and race with/against and when that failed I went nationwide. This leaves me dumb founded...are the folks on this forum ahead of the rest of the tri world or are they just the lucky ones who can afford these nice training tools without robbing a bank, their kids college fund or winning the lottery?

greg

Greg, it is simply a right wing conspiracy against PC's. OK, that's a joke. The truth is, people like me don't want everybody else knowing about them, because we want a head-start using them, so we passed laws making them illegal to sell in shops on the East Coast. The law is stronger than the "three-strikes" drug laws...if you are caught selling these in a shop, you're shipped to a bike store in Antarctica where your job is to install ice spikes in bike tires. Of course, there are no P3's at this shop...not enough rear wheel clearance for the spikes...

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

True. I remember back in the mid 80's when the scott DH bar came out. A friend of mine who was part of the all navy team came back from california raving about those bars and how they would cut a ton of time off the bike. We almost had to have them black marketed into Virginia..but what a difference; he/we kicked butt (I was a few steps back) but those not familiar with these new bars were crying the blues for one season as we cleaned house on all comers who were not from California to include some pros. I am sure PCs are great training aids...I however, have to put my money towards some new race wheels since i just converted from a 700c bike to a 650. I will look for some other new tools/aids (cheaper) to help me regain a spot at the top.

Greg

a couple general points.

to greg - PC's are indeed not known by many. this is not all bad. IMHO you need to find somebody who has USED them before the opinon is valid. they are hugely experiencial - speculation will not reflect impressions after use. roadie shops in particualr are not so familiar. i expect this to change, but you never know. around here the mt bikers are far more interested - they ride the road for training and do so alone alot. roadies are in groups and PC's initially will make a roadie get dropped by his buddies - said roadie will not be so hot on them based on this.

according to gordo half his athlete's use PC's - this is a pretty high percentage. gordo supports there use by his athletes. gordo's biggest problem has always been marketing not being to his taste, not the product.

most of the positive stuff i have seen has been by users who bought and paid for them. i am one such person.

again, on the threads - the product is by its nature drawing of questions and dicussion much more so than a brand/maker of bikes, for example. there are 3 titles running - if you aren't interested don't click on the title of the thread !! how simple is this ??? "dominating" ? please.

Greg,

It is not for lack of trying. First year I was out I went to Interbike and offered to give a pair (for floor display) to any shop that would sell them. Had about 20 takers in the entire Interbike scene.

My very first "pro" I took them too was John Howard who lives right up the street from a famous tri store that starts with N. The very next "pro" to get a pair was a fairly famous woman (one of her names also starts with N) who was a friend of John H. and whose brother runs that famous shop. I dropped a pair off for them to look at, to see if they were interested. They were not, even though John was very positive about them (and wrote an article about them for Triathlete magazine) and still trains with them and the woman, who was on the verge of retireing had me give a pair to one of her protegés (name starts, I believe, with HF) so, for them to say they have "NEVER HEARD OF THEM" is crazy.

Want an opinion from someone in Virginia try "Fitness Concepts" in Alexandria. They have been with them for many years. I think they coach quite a few elite in the area (associated with Joe Friel). Ken Mierke and I differ somewhat as to how they should best be used (he is in the Gordo camp) but that is ok. Time will tell which is best. People are free to use them however they feel is best for them (if they pay full price - Gary are you listening?).

So, are the people here ahead of the world? I don't know. People on this forum are aware of them but only a few have actually gotten them as many still don't believe, but worse, in my opinion, won't even try them - thinking I have duped the likes of ttn, goatboy, ktalon, T Demerly, and many others to wax eloquent about their own experiences with the cranks in some sort of conspiratorial and false marketing campaign. If my educating people is marketing that turns people off, so be it. But, only Tom Demerly on that list has anything to gain from my selling these. The rest only have things to lose in the form of competitive advantage.

The wholepurpose of the 60 day moneyback guarantee is to let each individual make his/her own decision regarding the worth of the cranks rather than rely on the "opinion" of someone who has never seen a pair. I have even extended this time to a few customers who were having trouble adapting to the cranks in the assigned period (they all ended up keeping the cranks).

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Frank,

Thank you for your input and comments. I in no way intended to appear pessimistic as if they do not work. On the contrary. I believe that anything that isolates the specific muscles and groups in each leg has to be of value and will yield gains. I was just surprised as to how little is known about them. I (unfortunately) tend to over analyze everything so that when I make a purchase I have all the information and rarely regret making a purchase. I hope that in the not too distant future I too will be able to attain a pair of these PCs; however, I will locate a store that has them (thanks for the info on the Virginia store) and try to get some additional input. Final kick which is a local store in Va Beach were familiar with them; and I am sure that if you offered them a pair to demo at the store, they would take you up on it...another local store that has a good selection of bikes is Conte's. If you wish I am sponsored by Conte's (I am no pro) and good friends with Jerry at Final Kick... I could relay your offer to them and let them contact you. I believe that this area (eastern VA) has a lot of triathletes who would be very interested in testing them.

greg

Greg,

I no longer give stores cranks for demo but I do give them a very good price for that first pair.

I will sell through any LBS for those not at ease with the internet and sell quite a few when people go to their store and ask them to get them from me for them. Some of these stores take advantage of my demo offer when I tell them about it and some don't. Most stores do not carry the cranks in stock because of the cost, current low volume, and the inability to predict the next customer's exact need.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

"following Coggan - I'm out of here,"

Gary, I hope you change your mind about this and stick around. Just because you have a disagreement with someone isn't a reason to pack up your marbles and go home.

I've never tried PC's as of yet, but am curious. Just can't justify $700. at this time for something that I am also a bit skeptical about. I am impressed with Dr. Frank's bio as an engineer/MD/NASA guy, but his promotion of PC's at times seems over enthusiatic. It's really up to him to provide some controlled studies to back up these claims.

On the otherhand, while I also respected Andrew credentials, he struck me as an academic type who if not being able to find a peer reviewed double blind controlled sudy in some academic journal, would not likely ever acknowlege the possibility maybe these things really might work. As someone who was scientifically trained but works in an alternative health field, I've come to believe that the truth can often lie somewhere in the middle.

If you do leave, at least I've boomarked your TT site for future reference.

Gary isn't leaving...he says that periodically, but keeps coming back to say he's leaving. Dr. Coggan, on the other hand...he seems to have indeed left. If he hasn't left, he at least doesn't seem to post.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)