All my work on flip turns and streamlining off the wall have failed to pay dividends in OW.

Seriously though, most gains in the pool (fitness gains) translate to OW. I do find that some of the work I do on extension and "gliding" (not actually gliding, but a slower beginning to the catch) help in the pool but don't carry the same benefit in OW.

Also, with OW make sure the distance was accurate and that environmental conditions (current, chop) didn't cause the slower times.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

OWS are notorious for being off by some distance.

A good OWS skill set can make up for some lack of fitness a poor OWS skill set will diminish some of your pool fitness.

Still the #1 way to give yourself the best chance of having a really fast swim is be a really fast swimmer.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I am convinced the biggest reason swimming slower OW is not swimming straight. Time gains add up quickly with just the slightest variance from straight line. I say trust your gains and swim straight.

On another note, keep in mind that the vast majority of the new swim at IMAZ is due east straight into the sun. Keep that in mind for goggle choice.

Thanks for the quick feedback, kind of what a friend of mine told me, "don't try to change things and it will come together on race day"
I am hoping that is the case, and trying to stick with the plan.

Also I still do open turns :)

What's your cadence in each setting??

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Dont worry about your OW times, if you are faster in the pool, then you are a faster swimmer. If you get out of the water and it says 1;20, are you going to just go oh shit, my race is done?? And then after the race you see the winner did 1;05 because it was long, or against a current, and you actually had a great swim, but had a shitty race because of your brain being in the wrong space...

Yeah, there are so many variables in OWS, none the least of which is the accuracy of the course measurement (by both the event organizers and by the watch on your wrist, if you're using it to track), that it's hard to compare event to event. Unless you've regressed substantially in OWS-specific skills, its hard to imagine how getting faster in the pool could make you slower in open water.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

This ^^^^^^

Open water practice swims are just hard to judge as well, was it windy that day, is your Garmin reading right, is the possibly current, its so hard to judge. Trust your swim times in the pool. If nothing else your fitness is simply better and you swim a similar time but get out of the water feeling better (less tired).

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

x1,000 Major pearl of wisdom above. Have confidence. My personal experience similar to the above came at IMCDA (RIP) in '17; my time was a good 3 min. slower than I expected, but, I knew I swam decently. Didn't give it a thought during the event. Turns out I got Roka FOTW in my AG by almost 2 min. Maybe the swim was long, doesn't matter. Mentally, I didn't let it "ruin" my race. even got my first KQ. I just keep playing a tape in my head "ya gotta be "in" it, to win it." Of course, if you're in my AG, forget the above and get psyched out at every little thing :-|

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Why streamlining does not work in OW? I tried to work on extension in the pool before but I got fatigued a lot in the extension so I gave up that idea, and I was faster with less extension in the front. What's the reason of that?

The streamlining I was referring to was the both hands in front as you push off the wall (no walls/turns in OW).

In general, I've found that longer, gliding strokes that work well in the pool don't work well if you are fighting a current (there's too much deceleration between strokes). Rougher water conditions tend to favor higher stroke rates.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I originally wanted to glide as long as possible and tried to reduce the stroke count as much as possible, but after I joined a triathlon club squad the coach told me this was bad because she thinks gliding = deadspot, then made me spin my arms insanely. It is really faster but it also causes a lot of aerobic demand as well, which I can't sustain for more than 1.5 km. However, my goal is to do marathon swimming in cold rough water. Do you think I should still do faster stroke rate even it is unsustainable over a long distance?

You don't have to go nuts on your stroke rate but your coach is right that gliding is not good if you want to win races. Everyone has an optimum stroke rate that varies with water conditions, your size and athletic conditioning. If you have been purposely trying to lengthen your stroke just to claim a lower stroke rate you probably do have a dead spot.

A good take on overgliding: http://www.feelforthewater.com/...nefficiency-and.html

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

I think over time we all migrate to our optimum long distance stroke, which can vary greatly from swimmer to swimmer. Ous Mellouli swam at about 60-65 SPM when he won the 2012 Oly 10K. To swim 5K, 10K, or longer, I think you simply have to swim at a rate you find comfortable. You don't want any dead spot though; no "gliding" but rather just extend the arm to full extension for like 0.1 sec, then start pulling back to begin the catch.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

🤣🏊‍♂️ thruth

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Should this be in pink? I mean the question kinda answers itself, no? Of course you shouldn’t use a stroke rate for long distance swim that’s not sustainable over a long distance.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Agree with all that have said to ignore open water times. I have nice little 300m, relatively protected part of the bay near my house & use it 2-3 times per week over summer. Even in that nice little spot, my times each way can vary up to 30 seconds, depending on the way the wind is blowing.

Stroke rate is also naturally slower with a long sleeve wetsuit than without. For wetsuit swims don't plan holding the same SPM.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Interesting to know, I only have a "long john" wettie which has no arm sleeves. I live in the southeastern U.S. so prob 75% of the races I've done have been non-wetsuit. When wetties are allowed, the sleeveless long john is plenty warm enough. I have always thought it would feel weird to swim with "buoyant arms", and what you've said confirms it. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

FFWD to 5:00

Brenden Casey is a 1:50 10k guy.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Stroke rate is also naturally slower with a long sleeve wetsuit than without. For wetsuit swims don't plan holding the same SPM. //

Correct, and there are two reasons for this. First one is of course the constriction of the shoulder area. Even the best and most flexible suits out there have some, so fewer strokes=less times to fight that pull. But the 2nd and most overlooked reason, is body position. When you ride so high in the water, you dont need as high a turnover to get over the dead spots in your glide. The deceleration in your body is greatly reduced, and you can lean out on your stroke longer. Of course it is all relative to the conditions, even in a wettie in rough conditions, you will want to quicken up your stroke..

OP should answer and think about this one, as well

What was your cadence on these more recent "slower" swims compared to the 1st and 2nd IM swims you cite? Distance per Stroke generally should be less sensitive to fitness gains but more sensitive to technique improvements. If you're getting faster in the pool then either your DPS is improving, your cadence is increasing (with DPS held constant or any decrease being offset by the cadence gains) or both. So what is the trendline in your cadence for your open water swims? If it's the same or better than your 1:10 or 1:07 efforts, your swim was probably fine and chalk it up to course or environmental factors, because I doubt your DPS has regressed if you're making pool gains

On the other hand, if your cadence was lower than your 1:10 or 1:07 efforts, then a different type of introspection is needed. Anything different with your equipment, how you were feeling, how the race dynamics played out (i.e., did you get caught in some poor / disruptive pack positions or did you get caught swimming solo when previously you were able to draft), did you not push as hard, etc.

I have experienced this to some extent as well. I did Ironman Canada in 2018 and had a swim of roughly 1:05 while averaging 9000m/week on my build and I was fairly disappointed with that swim. I did Ironman Canada again in 2019 and despite averaging 15,000m/week over the 9 months prior and knocking around 10s/100m off my pool time I finished with a 1:02 swim despite swimming fairly straight. For myself, I did a ton of wetsuit swims in 2018 but very few in 2019 as all my previous races were in Florida so I am chalking it up to that.

First 2 IM swims were done without a watch that tracked stroke rate (of if it did, I did not know enough to turn it on)
I would guess that stroke rate might be part of the OW "issue" if there is one. as I feel like I am not pushing as hard or paddling as quick.