I honestly believe 90-95% of AGers aren't actually trying to draft. That's just what happens when there is 2500 athletes on a course. I see the same stuff at Ironman Wisconsin. There is just nothing I can do for most of the course to not be 'drafting'.

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“The answer is hard work. What are you doing on Christmas Eve? Are you riding your bike? January 1st – are you riding your bike?”- Lance Armstrong

Agreed. It's not like you can go somewhere out there. When 800 athletes get out of water within 10 min, this is what happens. It's more of a real estate problem than an urge to draft out there. 800 people x 12 meters = about 6 miles. Simply not going to spread out that fast within 10 min of each other.

There were plenty of people intentionally trying to draft on Saturday or with just zero regard for the rules. It was pathetic. That being said, it seemed exactly the same as 2016 when I last did that race and less maddening because I knew it was coming.

I think a rolling start is inevitable, but I'm not sure that would change much and would make many other parts of the race significantly worse.

Yeah drafting was bad, but i really don't think it affects the front finishers much. Maybe it's selfish of me to think that way, but the vast majority of the drafting i saw was people going too hard just to hold on. There aren't many guys in that entire field who seemed to be doing much pacing all day, it was just go hard from the start and see what happened. It split up at Hawi and then blew up a a few miles later, and this on a very very easy day in regards to conditions. The whole way back was really spaced out where i was.
Whether someone drafts their way to 50th in their AG I don't really give a shit. It doesn't seem change the top 5 in the competitive groups.

This comes up every year.

One of Brett Sutton's coaches did the maths and wrote a good piece on it - it is almost impossible not to have drafting for the mid pack in Kona - too many athletes come out of the swim too close to each other and there isn't enough road space - by a long way. Preventative &/or punitive actions can't change this.

Wisconsin wasn't bad at all this year with the rolling start.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

haven't done it since 2017, I imagine rolling start did help.

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“The answer is hard work. What are you doing on Christmas Eve? Are you riding your bike? January 1st – are you riding your bike?”- Lance Armstrong

I should note... I don't advocate a rolling start for Kona... Maybe many individual 'mass starts' by age group to allow pure competition within AGs but that would require later starts to not interfere with female pro race which in itself would require a shorter deadline of 16.5 hours or, in most STers dreams a 16 hour cut-off similar to Europe, that way waves can go off until 8am.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I think a rolling start is inevitable,

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Help me understand something....what defines it as "rolling"....I mean obviously it's not a mass start anymore, but are there then restrictions on how many approach the start? Can 300 all go off together? Is it truly a semi time trial start where handful go off together or will there still be large groups going off together?

I'm asking because then would it not still likely have large groups going off if they don't really "regulate" the rolling part of the start?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So, draffting only matters if someone is “really” competing?

I came out of the water in 56’02 (178º) and could saw 480 people passing me. A good point of wiev in the first 96 kms.

For Kona, spacing isn't the issue- it's the patience of athletes to follow the rules that is the issue. Now on courses that are double or triple loops, then you run out of real estate. But for essentially an out and back 56 mile course, they easily have the space....athletes just dont slot in like they should. Look at every T1 when a group comes in and they are all over the place, which creates issues from the start.

But essentially 56mi race has ~90,000m. 3000 racers at 12m per athlete is only 36,000m. So it's the patience of athletes to follow the rules in Kona that is the issue (and when you have competitive people thus your issue).

ETA: I should also add it's now an culture. We "officiate" an un-officiable sport. So it creates incentives for the people to game the rules. So I'm not going to blame entirely on the athletes, they are just taking advantage of "it's only a foul if your called for it" mentality that triathlon has become.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hahaha you are fucking kidding?!

You want people to line up out of T1 to 'wait their turn' to slot into the pace line out onto the course.

Think about it? Really? Ridiculous.

No I'm suggesting that people race to the rules and thus make decisions on that and not blame "not enough real estate" in an race of essentially 1 out and back course, with what less than 2500 people.

You want to blame real estate on looped courses, fine, but Kona? Your incorrect and so is that article.

ETA: I'm also suggesting that we as a sport cant officiate racers properly anyways, and so I'm blaming both the athletes and the races. Just dont tell me there isn't enough real estate on 1 essential out and back course like Kona.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Seriously!?! I've done Wisconsin 5 times and I've rarely seen drafting. Are we talking about MOP?

To the OP... do what you want but I did Kona once and I'm not going back. I just don't see the point for many reasons but mainly because no matter how well I do (or poorly), I'll always know that it isn't a real determination of ability since there is so much drafting. Find a race that you love and make that your A race. I have and will continue to make that my main priority. Plus, then I can bank the many thousands of dollars I'm saving on not racing Kona and take my wife on a fancy vacation that doesn't include racing.

Sure the drafting isn't nearly as bad at IMWI as many others, but you can still see it. It's a matter of the number of people on the course, especially with the loops. Like I stated above, it's not intentional.

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“The answer is hard work. What are you doing on Christmas Eve? Are you riding your bike? January 1st – are you riding your bike?”- Lance Armstrong

No, I am not, and you clearly haven't read it.

It is nothing to do with 'total real estate' on the course, and everything to do with how many athletes are coming out of the swim within a 10 minute window, which is unique to Kona due to the standard of the event.

Except the whole issue is when a group of 30 comes to T1 what happens? They all fan out 3-4-5 wide all riding all over the road, riding left, riding right, right all beside/behind one another. So I'm not suggesting they not come out 27th out of 30th, I'm suggesting they swim faster or T1 faster anda thus "penalize" the guys who come out 29th. If that means "waiting" to slot into line so they can follow the rules of the race, so be it. So this idea that large number of athletes means they can't not ride legal is a bunch of Bullshit. Yes they can, they just dont want to do what it takes to ride legal....Which is what you said was ridicilous. You pretty much proved why they all bunch up. Because doing what it takes to ride legal would be silly looking.....but that would be following the rules.

So again it's an mindset and attitude towards it. Your 1st reply proved it, you scoffed at the idea of riding legal from teh start of T1. ETA: So yes you are incorrect and so was the author who you mentioned- it's not an real estate problem, it's an stubbornness to doing what you have to do to then ride legal. And that's fine, just don't then justify it with other reasons.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's a 40 mile loop? If you're coming around the second time and catch someone on their first lap, you will FLY by them as if they are standing still. Trust me, I know from experience. Even if you're MOP, that would still be the case.

I'm not saying that there isn't unintentional drafting on certain sections (when you crest a hill or can't gain enough speed to pass on a downhill) but typically when you hit an uphill, it breaks apart quickly... and if it doesn't, its intentional.

Rolling start is very feasible for AG and in controlling it.

Start from the little beach on the other side of the pier where they have the finish of Ho'ala swim training.... swim counter clock wise and bring a little in the turn-around boats..

I don't see any other viable option in the long term...

PRO Men sent at 6:35 PRO Women 6:40

AG Men rolling start at 6:55 - 7:10
AG Women rolling start 7:20-7:30

Let's give it a try WTC!

Well then they're going to have to put their big boy or girl pants on and either slow down or pass to follow the rules (or work on their swim to get a better position coming out of the water). Density isn't an excuse. If you start out behind someone, you keep the 12 meters or you enter the draft zone and pass. Drafting is rampant because there is no enforcement and even if there was enforcement a 5 minute penalty in an IM is not punitive enough to discourage a 112 mile draft train.

Where are you getting your 800 athletes in 10 minutes number? Using actual data from the race for example, I was male #112 out of the water in 54:04 and, picking some random guy that was more than 10 minutes behind me in 1:04:37, was male #661 out of the water. Not counting the 3 pros sandwiched in there, that is only about 550 guys in 10.5 minutes. 550*12m = 4.1 miles. At 24 mph that is about 10 minutes. See that - enough room for everyone at the most competitive race in the world!!

I would argue that the most overlooked and disregarded rule infraction that causes this mess is the Overtaken violation. No one drops back 15 meters after getting passed because they are afraid of losing position and they know they have to soft pedal while in the draft zone. Some dude actually had the nerve to tell me I was "blocking" 10 seconds after I passed him and was attempting to pass the next guy in the train, because he latched onto my wheel immediately after I passed him. The ignorance and/or blatant disregard (not sure which is more of an issue) for the rules is astounding at the pointy end of the sport.

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Strava

No, it isn't.


Yes, it is.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I think lack of wind compounds the problem. When the winds are blowing hard off the ocean or at a decent angle it tends to separate riders and makes it harder to draft. Probably time to change the course, if possible to add another climb early in the race like Kuakini. maybe Kam III or even up one of the side roads early in the race.

What he ^^^^^ said!

pretty much. It's only a world championship in name. All but the top 1% go their to prove something to themselves only, if they can be proud of drafting, i don't really care. I don't fall into the top 1%, so if someone beats me by drafting, i know i didn't really lose anything tangible like a big salad bowl.

I came out in 58, got passed by 200 in the first 40 minutes!