This is just a general response to the thread... I’ve struggled with weight my entire life and am by all accounts a successful person in all other aspects of life... for some reason I just can’t get my eating under control. It’s probably the biggest cause of stress in my life. Being overweight does nothing to further any of my goals as an athlete or professionally as someone getting into the coaching business. I’ve tried every diet there is and have come to the conclusion that cutting out a specific food group long term does not work. Sure, I’ve lost a lot of weight on the paleo diet, keto diet, vegan, etc... but eventually it all comes back. I need to read the book someone else mentioned (Hungry Brain, not the original post) as I think that sounds interesting. My experience has taught me that yes it is partially a hormonal issue, but at the end of the day it’s primarily calories in and out. My problem is controlling the calories in portion of the equation and it’s not a matter of willpower. I’m stubborn enough to take 20 hours to finish a bike race, I have will power, but for some reason I’m often helpless when it comes to food... no real point or anything to add in terms of science, just my N=1 experience and venting. If you’re struggling, you’re not alone.

As a type 1 diabetic I agree with you. Insulin does get a bad rep. I have increased insulin use at times to eat more carbs for more exercise and have lost weight before. It’s about balance. Yes insulin is a storage hormone but it’s not the devil

I mentioned in a few posts that I'm in the same spot as you. Basically, learn to love broccoli. 600g/day...that's actually hard to start out there. Everyone talks about how you need to cut out bread (I believe in that a bit).

When I'm being good and forthright I'm eating 500 to 600g of green vegetables daily. When broccoli becomes boring, move to Brussels Sprouts, when they become boring move to Green Beans, when they become boring move to carrots. Although the last three don't really work that well with eggs at all.

I started at like 100g at lunch and dinner...as I needed more energy I just kept eating more. Then added some sweet potato or rice...I think at 600g, that was my limit. Eating more and it would be rough. But 600g of broccoli split between BLD will keep your stomach squelched for awhile.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

i went through a carrot phase once....ended up turning very yellow in complexion....like a jaundice baby. Could see at night like a cat though

Every time I hear calories in and out don’t matter and don’t help one keep weight off I wonder what it was that caused me to lose enough weight in 2001 to go from a 30s BMI to 22 and keep it off. What would this guy say?

This has been a great thread with many smart, well thought out responses. I'm not sure it turned out the way you thought it would, but thanks for starting it.

For me, it solidified that there are many pieces to the weight loss/maintenance equations; of which Calories play the biggest role.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

OP here - this thread turned out EXACTLY the way I thought it would.

Remember, calories in vs out is only the endpoint. You are focusing on the most proximate cause and missing the key upstream causes. Calories in/out is simple and works as a main simplistic strategy (esp for short-term wt loss) - until it doesn't (the vast majority of people for long-term wt loss over years/decades.) And then you need to know where to go next.

There are many ways to make calories down easier and effective long term. It's very multifactorial, very case specific, and that is why I can't sum utp the research of the book in a single nugget like keto, fasting, insulin, etc without misrepresenting it (as most who have not read it are doing on this thread.)

But suffice to say, it's stunningly obvious to look at obesity trends in the face of traditional conceptions and see it has utterly failed for us and our kids with regards to the obesity epidemic. Us lucky ones who have great self motivation can just htfu and keep bmi down, sure, good for us! But it's clear this approach of blame the patient for laziness and poor choices has utterly failed in the modern food toxic environment for society at large and is likely hugely contributing to the obesity epidemic. (Think 'food pyramid' , the stunning lack of research behind it, and how well that has worked for our nation's obesity coupled with how long we've blamed people for trying to follow it and then getting obese at 80% societal rate.)

Let me be clear. I am a highly motivated person. I've never had a weight problem, have had low BF/good six pack my entire life even at M45, and I do this in the setting of 2 obese parents and brother with identical body type but who is now obese - if you saw me, you'd say I'm like the last person who needs to read a diet book. I used to be just like you all - self righteous about my ability to cut calories, eat mostly vegan, exercise a lot - good for me, and I can't believe how WEAK these obese people are! I read this book, and realized that despite my good weight control, most of my assumptions on food are either hugely outdated or outright wrong. I could be working smarter, and less harder, to have even better and easier weight control. And especially about my self-righteousness after seeing how wrong I've been about many things, esp 'blame the patient.'

I'm not making any big changes (no keto, no big fasting, etc) but for sure, I've gained understanding and method refinement after reading this book. That's probably the best compliment I could give a diet book, honestly - no quick fix, just good analysis of big studies based on good data and some recommendations on top.


Seriously, read it if you can. You will definitely learn a lot, even if you have a different diet philosophy. It will likely help you make productive changes to YOUR regimen without abandoning it.

self righteous about my ability to cut calories, eat mostly vegan, exercise a lot - good for me, and I can't believe how WEAK these obese people are!
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I don't think I've ever been around someone who defines obese people as weak. Apathetic, maybe, but not weak. Most of the overweight people simply don't really want to lose weight in much the same way that I don't want to stretch. Sure, I say that I want to stretch. I think it would be good for me, especially as I get older. But, when it comes time to stretch, I simply skip it. I just don't enjoy stretching. Most people have a similar approach towards weight loss. They know what they want to do. They know how to do it. When it comes time to actually do it, the alternative (eating and/ or not exercising) seems a lot more enjoyable.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I’ll have to think about that... I know I had a double serving of broccoli at a restaurant for lunch that looked like a triple serving and the digestive results weren’t pretty!

My biggest issue is compulsive eating. I’ve actually started to see someone to talk about compulsive behaviors and she has some interesting ideas. I looked into some of the overeating 12 step groups as I know people who have had success going that route for food, alcohol, etc addictions, but came to the conclusion that it wasn’t for me. One of the food groups says no sugar or gluten. Anytime you have sugar you have fallen off the wagon and your “sobriety” count starts over. You have a sponsor who tells you what you can and can’t eat. I love the idea of accountability, but from what I read that particular group is black or white in their interpretation of food... which probably wouldn’t work so well on a 200 mile bike ride. I also struggle with the higher power idea. I have a friend going through the process and he’s a completely different person.

I was in construction for many years and it was my experience that if you took a large construction bucket and put in 10 shovel fulls of anything, then removed 9 shovel fulls, and repeated that every day, the bucket not only never emptied, but surprisingly got fuller, until it overflowed.

It didn't seem to matter what you used, whether it was sand, earth, gravel, or bull shit. the same thing happened every time.
However there were some, from far away, who believed that the "faeries" could alter that result.
Especially if they filled the bucket with faerie dust.
But it usually smelled a bit like bull.

You should definitely read the book that is the subject of this thread. It brings clarity to so many of the points you brought up:

• why have I seemingly always struggled with weight gain
• I don't seem to have control over my cravings or eating (hint: some people actually don't)
• other diets have failed, and weight I lose always comes back, even though I'm a smart person.
  
• probably/maybe a hormonal issue (book definitely says YES, it is)
  
• myth that everyone believes: calories in = calories out. scientific evidence through controlled trials says this is not true, and this belief is partially responsible for the obesity epidemic.
• your ability to control calories in or cravings may in fact be hormonal. how can you get a hold of it permanently?

I'm sure there are shortcomings to this book, or the interpretations of research studies presented (I'm not a doctor). But there are some really good points raised that helped me (and tons of other people) finally "get it".

The people who say it's the hormones and not the calories...

The foods you eat (calories) make the hormones you produce! Many people view food only as fuel , when a good chunk of it determines the composition of your body (rebuilding)

I haven't read his book and don't plan on reading his book; but if it helps people lose weight then that's great. However, the crux, the core, the primary focus of weight loss and control is calories in and calories out. Yes, food quality matters, food timing matters, a balanced diet matters, but at the very core of weight loss is calories in and calories out. It's worked long term for me - as in DECADES.

Americans are getting fatter because portion sizes have grown tremendously in the past 50 years. Western society has an over abundance of extremely cheap, highly fattening processed foods - a veritable funnel of calories going in at the same time that people exercise less, watch TV or the internet more, and have replaced every form of movement with some sort of assisted power starting with little electronic cars for toddlers. My quack meter goes off when anyone suggests otherwise.

^^^^ This. Having traveled a LOT recently to other countries, it's shocking the difference in portions, crappy food and poor education and lack of true desire in this country. I sure did not eat broccoli alone in France, and I also saw very few eating it or being fat while there. Same with other countries (the Netherlands, Spain). Why? They get off of their asses, walk everywhere, know when they;ve had enough and enjoy fully what they eat.

As far as cravings....I submit that usually what you crave is something your body feels it needs. When hear IM training in summer, one craves potato chips.....and with good reason. Listen to the cravings but use your head too. There is truly amazing food here and we are extremely blessed. What many choose to eat is not the fault the system, but their terribly poor choices, and lack of TRULY wanting to make a change. Smokers CAN quit, so why is weight loss any different?

Pretty much the whole premise of the book is CICO is flawed, and numerous studies have shown without any doubt that reducing calories rarely leads to long term weight loss, or in the fight against obesity.

I also raised the CICO banner before reading this book, and realized that it's a lot more complicated than I thought. There's a big portion of this book dedicated to this very subject.

I have four comments on this:

1) I hope whatever you learned from the book works for you - truly, I do.
2) See post #69 in this thread.
3) Long term lifestyle change is necessary for long term weight loss to hold.
4) Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack!

Can you link those studies? The one's I've read have shown that failures are due to not reducing calories ie CI>CO, not that long term calorie deficit doesn't work

Just curious how you know he is very respected, did it say it on the book, or are you a specialist/physician that works in the Toronto area?

If I ate 600g of broccoli per day it wouldn’t be safe to be in the same area code as me the smell would be so bad.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

That is just it. Every diet ever conceived comes down to calories in/ calories out. It doesn't matter what any book says, if you burn more calories than you consume, you will lose weight. Likewise, you won't gain weight (other than temporary water weight) if you don't consume more calories than you burn.

The only items up for discussion with diets, is what foods will allow you to accomplish that goal in a healthy and sustainable way. Clearly if you sat and ate candy bars or big macs all day, you will end up fat and unsatisfied. You can stuff a whole lot of calories into a candy bar and not feel full.

I was just listening to the Trainerroad podcast, and the book made "Coach Chad's" recommended book list in this episode.

That alone doesn't make it "respected." Also I haven't read the book, and I'm also new to the TR podcasts. I just know that the Trainerroad guys are respected amongst a good number of people in this forum, so thought I'd point it out. They sound pretty well informed in the podcast, but I haven't fact-checked every single claim they make.

My view's pretty simple.

People get thin when food is scarce. Human history, with war and famine, shows us that.

When food isn't scare, we need to control our heads and our hands, or get fat.

Thank you.

8 Ironman finishes, logging food and drink, and I was (and am) still fat. And, being female of a certain age, the fat has shifted around. Ordered the book and will read it.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Coach Chad has also said in the past that this means he likes at least some of the points in a book, not necessarily that he agrees with all or even most of them. Doesn't mean it isn't worth a read, just means critical thinking needs to be applied

mdtrihard wrote:

Plausible explanation? Like a former Vietnamese coworker used to say "food too cheap here".

not so much 'food too cheap', as 'bad food too cheap' .. we massively subsidize meat and dairy and corn syrup production, grains very little, vegetables and fruits barely measurably.



https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/...s-less-than-a-salad/

The most interesting new research I've seen on obesity is,
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...ll/10.1111/obr.12785
Studied a bunch of hunter-gatherer societies with a wide range of diets, all of which produced very little obesity.
It also found that total energy expenditures in these societies with high levels of physical activity, were no higher than in industrialized populations. Homeostatis is a remarkably powerful effect..
"That suggests that health authorities should consider recommending exercise primarily as a way to improve metabolic health, but not necessarily as a calorie-burning antidote to obesity, the authors said.
Rather than changing the amount of energy expended each day, exercise may improve health by affecting the allocation of energy among physiological tasks. For example, increased physical activity expenditure might reduce energy expended on inflammation and other deleterious activity."

The study concludes,
"Close friendships and family bonds, low levels of social and economic inequality and lots of time spent outdoors are typical in hunter-gatherer populations and other small-scale societies. The absence of these in modern societies is associated with chronic social stress and a range of non-communicable diseases, including metabolic disease and obesity."