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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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 I follow the research in this realm of medicine, even if i am not an expert, but i am in the field.

What I can say is that the truth is usually in between. Maybe that is not very sexy.

There are some great pieces of research underway regarding health and diet. You can also pick studies to support, or reject, any medical point of view.

Studies of diet and physical activity are exceedingly hard to control. As such, data interpretation is often limited. Take it all wiith a grain of salt. It does not mean it is all wrong, but is also not all right. There is a lot we still do not know. I was chatting with a well known university professor/doctor who does such studies. He described the issues including confounding data, issues with correlation vs causation, patient compliance, study dropouts, and people lost to follow-up. Ignore the fact that 70% of people lie to their doctor (based on studies), often around compliance of such subjects.

The best studies ideally have fully controlled diets, but the people willing to institutanalize themselves long term for a truly controlled diet are limited, and Such studies unintentianally bias for specific socioeconomic status that often does not represent the whole. And when it happens, numbers are small, durations are too short, and dropout skews results. And then there is the correlation and causation issue. With diet it is very hard (impossible) to control only one variable. So take interpretation with a grain of salt.

We also need to distinguish between a population health approach to diet, vs individualized. The answer to one, is often not the answer to another... or at least it is more complex.

National “food guides” were more based on expert opinion (not always facts), and industry always had a hand in the pot. Goals were often widespread with many different interest groups advicating the pros and cons of so many foods. In reality, the biggest improver of life expectancy in the modern world was related to diet... and less people starving to death from malnutrition. And a reduction of birth related deaths... but that is off topic.

Keto diets work (high fat, high protein). I have seen many patients loose weight, get of hypergensive meds, get of lipid lowering meds, get off inulin 100%. I have seen many more get initial gains, but eventually fail because it was not sustainable for THEM.

I have seen many other diets “work” just as well also. A lot of data is there to support the idea that all (reasonable) diets work, and at a population level, humans commitment is what determines sucess, not the specific “diet”.

Day to day, the the focus often turns to small changes that are sustainable to the individual, and which the individual will buy into. This approach is one i promote when people are not willing to buy into wholescale change (and that is most people).

And genetics is part of it. I have been a healthy 130lbs my entire life since i was a teenager. Via bmi i am underweight. I often eat crap. Very often. My family is a similar build. There is no diabetes in my family. There is no overt cancer in my family. No heart disease. One grandfather lived to 94, the other is 102 and alive. My blood pressure is ideal. My heart rate is ideal. My cholesterol is ideal. Maybe i will die of a heart attack anyway. Who knows.

Some people get diabetes early. Some die of heart disease despite a perfect diet/lifestyle. Some people are born with diabetes. I treat diabetes regularily. I have a collegue who came from an area of europe where diabetes was so rare that only specialists deal with it. I would see 2-3 people a day with diabetes, maybe more. He was shocked.

Our current generation is the first generation that is expected to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents.

So the answer is in between. There is science to various diets, and calories in = calories out. And genetics is a part of it. And it is more complex than we like to pretend it is, and we will not all have the same outcomes. We are all different.

This is how I describe health to my patients: life is like poker. In the end we all run out of chips. I can’t give you a winning hand, but maybe we can do things like diet/medication/lifestyle to slip you a few face cards or aces now and then. We should always strive to stack the deck in our favour when it comes to health.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [Mongo] [ In reply to ]
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Mongo wrote:


However, I didn't see any reference to such publication in your earlier posts in this thread. Can you point me to where I can find that information. I'd love to learn more from what is documented in those independent sources.

Thanks in advance.




I'll engage, if you mean this honestly, and drop the smug condescension act, and discuss across the table, respectfully. (you would have been OK until the cutesy "thanks in advance"). There is some good research out there. Though I'm only an engineer, which means I'm effectively a lay interpreter of the science, and not an authority.



Quote:
As an engineer








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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
It's because the hormones are so powerful. He gives great examples of how he can take low-BMI, highly fit young male athletes, and just by administering IV insulin over a period of time, instantly convert them to obese folks with poor metabolic profiles.

So this example, is it supposition on his part or did he actually do a study? If the latter how did he get that past an ethics committee? I can't see that happening.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [CreepinTortoise] [ In reply to ]
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Reply to last post -

Sorry to the OP - Jason Dung as he’s known on Twitter is part of the Noakes, Harcombe, Malhotra etc. School of quakary.
An MD practicing well outside his field.

If you want decent info on fasting etc. Id recommend Satchin Pandas work
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Writing a book on diet is like writing a book on peace in the Middle East.

You simply cannot find a solution that works for absolutely everyone. You can find one that works for most people, but it's at the expense of others. What this Dr. is saying would work for some people (average American) and not others (many endurance athletes).

I 100% do not believe that he wrote this book for the betterment of mankind. He wrote this book to sell books. Your hero worship has put me off it, and I won't be picking it up.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Plausible explanation? Like a former Vietnamese coworker used to say "food too cheap here".
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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I guess books on dialysis don't sell very well.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Am doctor who treats obesity and metabolic/hormone disorders. Fung is an idiot. A persuasive one obviously. He does science wrong in that he has a conclusion and then works backwards to support that conclusion. The insulin theory of weight management has been shot down thoroughly in a great series by James Krieger. And done by looking at THE ENTIRETY of literature that is available.

Just because it sounds good to you doesn't make it correct. If you're not familiar with all the literature, I'm not sure how you can be so convinced after reading one book. Dunning-Kruger and such.

https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Last edited by: RoostBooster: Feb 28, 19 6:01
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Seems like Fung's thing is all about re-storing insulin sensitivity... But you know what's the best at improving insulin sensitivity? Exercise. Any type of exercise! High intensity, low intensity, aerobic, resistance. It doesn't matter! Somewhere there's a paper looking at the minimum effective dose for improving insulin sensitivity, and it's in the range of 4 minutes per day.

You know what else improves insulin sensitivity? Weight loss. And a low glycemic index diet. And fasting.

So, the backbone of his whole theory really falls in line with conventional thought:
1. Eat fewer calories
2. Eat better foods (as this will help with 1)
3. Exercise more
4. Eat less often (maybe, if it helps support 1, 2, and/or 3).

But telling people the secret to weight loss involves eating less and exercising more won't sell many books, so he has to present it as something totally novel and opposed to conventional wisdom.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you here. The Obesity Code is a great collection of research. Not so much a "diet" book, or DO THIS TO LOSE WEIGHT book. It's more like a collection of all of the major diet studies put together, and reviewing why all of those have failed in some way or another. This book does not lay out a particular diet, but good principles based on actual science and research studies.

The research presented here changed my life in how I think about food and body composition. I'm an avid keto diet hater, but this book shows why eating that way gets results (and ultimately shows why it's proven to be ineffective over the long haul [hint: unsustainable]).

I've basically been training my body, through insulin response, to become a type-II diabetic. And it shows with the weight I've put on over the past few years, even when training like a mad man and counting CICO.

I'm down about 12lbs over the past couple months with no dieting or increase in exercise using a few of the principles from this book: whole foods, limiting the types of foods that create huge insulin response, not eating until I'm hungry (this usually makes me skip breakfast, which is also considered intermittent fasting). I told my wife the other day that I feel like my body is getting back on track, and after a year I'll be back where I supposed to be.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [RoostBooster] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting timing on seeing this this morning. From an MD who is actually an expert in this field. Seems like Fung doesn't like to be questioned.

https://twitter.com/YoniFreedhoff/status/1101140278377877508?fbclid=IwAR1-Cg0KeelFVVA9dInzaNckMi2A-AmUL99L6svAPKG0I9g220hQzhWGpt0
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what would happen if an Inuit Indian adopted a vegan diet....?
Last edited by: mjbruiser: Feb 28, 19 8:21
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [mjbruiser] [ In reply to ]
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mjbruiser wrote:
I wonder what would happen if an Inuit Indian adopted a vegan diet....?

Since when do Inuit people live in India?
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
His point is that it's actually very hard to gain weight over your metabolic set point, as your body will fight you to pull your weight back down. It works in both directions - losing weight downwards, AS WELL as gaining weight upwards.


If only there was a way for all of us to know what that "set point" was... Then we would know where our homeostasis lies and what weight we can expect to maintain with the least effort.
Last edited by: Spartan420: Feb 28, 19 10:31
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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At the end of the day, it is calories in and calories out. Study after study after study has shown this for the vast majority of people. Yes, there are examples of people with tumors (IT'S NOT A TOOOMAH). Yes there are examples of people without kidneys, without a pancreas, with diabetes, with three arms, who have unique health problems.

They've done studies where they've varied the make up of the calories (more fat, less fat, all protein, whatever), the timing of the calories (morning, night, lunch), and none of it has mattered. The only thing that mattered was being consistent, and having fewer calories.

Read this.

http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
At the end of the day, it is calories in and calories out. Study after study after study has shown this for the vast majority of people. Yes, there are examples of people with tumors (IT'S NOT A TOOOMAH). Yes there are examples of people without kidneys, without a pancreas, with diabetes, with three arms, who have unique health problems.

They've done studies where they've varied the make up of the calories (more fat, less fat, all protein, whatever), the timing of the calories (morning, night, lunch), and none of it has mattered. The only thing that mattered was being consistent, and having fewer calories.

Read this.

Calories is an approximation that doesn't account for biological chemistry... Eating same amount of calories of only pure came sugar vs raw broccoli everyday will yield differing results
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but how you get the calories may effect how many more calories you end up eating. A big part of Dr. Guyenet's work is focusing on the palatability of foods and that adding seasonings and fat to a food, while it may not add much more calories (or any in the case of salt) makes it taste much better and therefore activates parts of your brain the will cause you to eat more than you would have.

As much as people like to claim otherwise, eating is not just a simple choice we make. We have evolved strong neurological impulses that make depriving ourselves of food and calories very difficult. Not everyone is wired the same, obviously, as you see in drug addiction where some people become addicted to certain drugs much easier than others. For some people, not eating or restricting calories seems like an easy process, but for a lot of people, I can tell you, it's damn hard.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
beachedbeluga wrote:
At the end of the day, it is calories in and calories out. Study after study after study has shown this for the vast majority of people. Yes, there are examples of people with tumors (IT'S NOT A TOOOMAH). Yes there are examples of people without kidneys, without a pancreas, with diabetes, with three arms, who have unique health problems.

They've done studies where they've varied the make up of the calories (more fat, less fat, all protein, whatever), the timing of the calories (morning, night, lunch), and none of it has mattered. The only thing that mattered was being consistent, and having fewer calories.

Read this.


Calories is an approximation that doesn't account for biological chemistry... Eating same amount of calories of only pure came sugar vs raw broccoli everyday will yield differing results

And that strawman didn't take long to come out. Nobody is arguing otherwise. It would yield different "results" however weight changes would be the exact same. You're out of place in a nutrition discussion as always.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I have always read that diets fail, but long-term changes mostly succeed. I began to totally revamp my eating habits using nothing but MyFitnessPal and calories in/out, back in late 2012. By the end of 2012 I had lost about 45 pounds, and since 2013 I have stayed about 53 pounds of weight loss. I went from 233 to 180 pounds so was not super over weight, but that was a long journey, and I seem to have stuck the landing.

And I am one of those triathletes who can eat everything in sight after a weekend long ride. It's not DIFFICULT to stick to the weight loss, but it can be HARD. I had some friends I don't see as often (french fries and Oreo's were both painful break-ups). But I made new colored friends (broccoli, red peppers, pineapple) that have helped me.

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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How big a zip-lock bag does it take to store 600g of Brocolli for just one day? I mean, I eat a lot of brocolli, but that seems like it wouldn't even fit in a one gallon freezer bag.

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [David_Tris] [ In reply to ]
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David_Tris wrote:
How big a zip-lock bag does it take to store 600g of Brocolli for just one day? I mean, I eat a lot of brocolli, but that seems like it wouldn't even fit in a one gallon freezer bag.

That's only a pound, which is pretty close to the standard supermarket frozen bag of flourets...or one fresh head (give or take). Should easily fit into a gallon ziplock...maybe even a quart size, if its cut up.

In Colorado you could probably dry it out, crumple it up, and sell it with wrapping papers, in a sandwich baggie.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [David_Tris] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I cook it all up and then put it in tupperware. Takes a few big rubbermaids, but I usually have to cook two batches because it's a lot. Getting a T-Fal giant wok was clutch.

When going to the store? It's filling up 2 to 2.5 of the bags that you put fresh vegetables in which is roughly the equivalent of a standard plastic grocery bag.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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If anyone has any doubts about the kind of person Jason Dung is then please take a few minutes to read this thread. By a real doctor and all round good egg.

https://twitter.com/.../1101140278377877508
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [ In reply to ]
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This sort of thing gets me triggered because it's the sort of thing that tries to sound scientific but contains so much pseudo-science and hypothesizing, and those for whom this works believe it's THE BEST way. As far the intermittent fasting thing, I think any study I've looked up, as well as at least one meta-analysis, found that overall calorie restriction vs intermittent makes so real difference, they both work. I'll admit, I try to cut myself off from eating after a certain time, not because I think IF is magical, it's just that I can constantly snack and graze and if I don't cut myself off at night then I just keep on going.

I originally lost 70lbs through cycling and calorie restriction, that was about 6 years ago now, went from 225 to 154. I put on some weight every now and then, maxing out at 170 if I go through a period. But I don't subscribe to any special "diet" as far as being vegan or keto or anything. I eat what I like, try to eat a balance of things and try not to overdo it on things I really like.

I believe pretty strongly that people don't cut as many calories as they think they do, and I know people don't exercise as effectively as they think they do (for those of us with power meters know, a 20-30min ride at a novice's power level doesn't yield more than a couple hundred calories). If people really focused on both they wouldn't feel as frustrated by their plateaus
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
I follow the research in this realm of medicine, even if i am not an expert, but i am in the field.

What I can say is that the truth is usually in between. Maybe that is not very sexy.

There are some great pieces of research underway regarding health and diet. You can also pick studies to support, or reject, any medical point of view.

Studies of diet and physical activity are exceedingly hard to control. As such, data interpretation is often limited. Take it all wiith a grain of salt. It does not mean it is all wrong, but is also not all right. There is a lot we still do not know. I was chatting with a well known university professor/doctor who does such studies. He described the issues including confounding data, issues with correlation vs causation, patient compliance, study dropouts, and people lost to follow-up. Ignore the fact that 70% of people lie to their doctor (based on studies), often around compliance of such subjects.

The best studies ideally have fully controlled diets, but the people willing to institutanalize themselves long term for a truly controlled diet are limited, and Such studies unintentianally bias for specific socioeconomic status that often does not represent the whole. And when it happens, numbers are small, durations are too short, and dropout skews results. And then there is the correlation and causation issue. With diet it is very hard (impossible) to control only one variable. So take interpretation with a grain of salt.

We also need to distinguish between a population health approach to diet, vs individualized. The answer to one, is often not the answer to another... or at least it is more complex.

National “food guides” were more based on expert opinion (not always facts), and industry always had a hand in the pot. Goals were often widespread with many different interest groups advicating the pros and cons of so many foods. In reality, the biggest improver of life expectancy in the modern world was related to diet... and less people starving to death from malnutrition. And a reduction of birth related deaths... but that is off topic.

Keto diets work (high fat, high protein). I have seen many patients loose weight, get of hypergensive meds, get of lipid lowering meds, get off inulin 100%. I have seen many more get initial gains, but eventually fail because it was not sustainable for THEM.

I have seen many other diets “work” just as well also. A lot of data is there to support the idea that all (reasonable) diets work, and at a population level, humans commitment is what determines sucess, not the specific “diet”.

Day to day, the the focus often turns to small changes that are sustainable to the individual, and which the individual will buy into. This approach is one i promote when people are not willing to buy into wholescale change (and that is most people).

And genetics is part of it. I have been a healthy 130lbs my entire life since i was a teenager. Via bmi i am underweight. I often eat crap. Very often. My family is a similar build. There is no diabetes in my family. There is no overt cancer in my family. No heart disease. One grandfather lived to 94, the other is 102 and alive. My blood pressure is ideal. My heart rate is ideal. My cholesterol is ideal. Maybe i will die of a heart attack anyway. Who knows.

Some people get diabetes early. Some die of heart disease despite a perfect diet/lifestyle. Some people are born with diabetes. I treat diabetes regularily. I have a collegue who came from an area of europe where diabetes was so rare that only specialists deal with it. I would see 2-3 people a day with diabetes, maybe more. He was shocked.

Our current generation is the first generation that is expected to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents.

So the answer is in between. There is science to various diets, and calories in = calories out. And genetics is a part of it. And it is more complex than we like to pretend it is, and we will not all have the same outcomes. We are all different.

This is how I describe health to my patients: life is like poker. In the end we all run out of chips. I can’t give you a winning hand, but maybe we can do things like diet/medication/lifestyle to slip you a few face cards or aces now and then. We should always strive to stack the deck in our favour when it comes to health.

Thank you - very well said.
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