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Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke
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After years of protest I have finally taken to incorporating flip turns into my training. About 3 months into this and I am still dying for oxygen on my breakout stroke and late in sets find the desire to break my breathing pattern to get an extra gulp of oxygen before the wall.

is this a case of HTFU and comfort will come with time and practice?
or,
does anyone have any drills, tips, tricks to more quickly get comfortable with the shift in breath timing when transitioning from open turns to flip turns?
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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following.

i gave up and returned to open turns unless i'm pulling.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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What is your normal breathing pattern while swimming? I ask because if you breathe every stroke it is definitely alot harder to then transition to a flip, streamline, and not breathe on the breakout. Maybe in this case also work on breathing every 3-4 strokes when swimming so you don't "shock the system" at each wall.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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Just take a breath before starting your turn. It comes with practice and eventually you don't even think about it.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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I have been swimming for 40 + years and I still sneak a breath before the flip turn, as stated above it does become easier with practice. Work on bi-lateral breathing and once you have mastered that you can sneak a breath before the wall without breaking rhythm.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guessing you're really panicking right before you turn, so you take the biggest breath you possibly can? This actually overstresses you, and you need to make sure to not overfill your lungs, just take a large but still comfortable breath. Relax, you'll make it!

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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Once you learn the Gary Hall breathing pattern, it becomes easy to do a double breath into the wall, and out of it too. Those two things allow a good swimmer to get a much longer breakout without cost, and AOC swimmers enough air to just be able to do the dam things...
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. Did a youtube search. Found some good short videos.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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Form is critical and the top three answers were already stated above. A trade-off tip is to throttle back the leg power to extend time underwater. They suck oxygen demand much more than arms, shoulders muscles, and core but it allows a bit of the tri-OCD slanted person to complete a succession of flip turns and feel good about it.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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I was in the same boat. I started flip turns well into my triathlon career and usually came up gasping for air. Plus it seemed like I spent the whole swim preparing for or recovering from a turn. I hated it so much that I gave up several times and went back to open turns. Eventually I stuck with it long enough that I am now fairly comfortable. I do not have to think about them and shortness of breath is no longer an issue. My turns are probably terrible by any reasonable standard and 1-2 times per workout I screw up and come in so awkwardly that I have to do an open turn. That being said, it has made me slightly faster in the pool and, more importantly, made it easier to transition to open water because I am no longer accustomed to a brief rest every 25 yds. My suggestion is just to refine your technique to the extent possible, but mostly just stick with it. I'd say it was about a year from the time I first started until I found I was no longer thinking about them. If I can do it, anyone can.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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here's what i have on the front page on 2:3 breathing, with a video. i've adapted this in a number of ways, and when open water swimming this is frequently alternate breathing with an occasional 3-consecutive-breath series thrown in. in my opinion, consecutive breaths are: 1) mandatory as you age; 2) a real luxury with flip turns; 3) huge in open water.

the value in open water is: 1) if somebody splashes water in your mouth during a scheduled breath, you just get your breath on the other side; 2) you can see what's going on on your other side; 3) you get more air.

the older i get the more susceptible i am to hypoxia. the capacity to take consecutive breaths is a substantial safety factor. i can absoutely see how someone can get into real trouble in the water just by losing 2 chances to breathe, as in, a breath is stolen by some a-hole swimming overtop of you, and then the second breath is a washout for the same reason, or whatever. my ability to get a breath on either side, whenever i want, without ever breaking stroke, is a huge, huge tactical advantage, and safety technique, i have as a swimmer, esp as i age.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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Rememeber from my swimming days I would struggles a lot with this sometimes especially if I was going hard but it definitely got easier with time as flip turns became second nature and I got a better handle on my breathing pattern.

One thing to keep in mind is that you should be exhaling or "blowing bubbles" while your face is in the water rather than holding your breath and exhaling and inhaling every time you turn your head. So becoming more efficient at flip turns and breathing are the two main things I can think you could work on.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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Practice some underwaters as part of warm up. I push off wall and go as far as I can underwater dolphin kicking and some days I do the whole 25 underwater coming up for air 2-3x. I can tell when I am in shape i can do it on 2 breaths and not breathing hard other times I kind of fall apart and can barely get back underwater to keep kicking.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [TriMeToo] [ In reply to ]
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TriMeToo wrote:
After years of protest I have finally taken to incorporating flip turns into my training. About 3 months into this and I am still dying for oxygen on my breakout stroke and late in sets find the desire to break my breathing pattern to get an extra gulp of oxygen before the wall.

is this a case of HTFU and comfort will come with time and practice?
or,
does anyone have any drills, tips, tricks to more quickly get comfortable with the shift in breath timing when transitioning from open turns to flip turns?

Yes, at 3 months only, you likely won't be used to it yet as a triathlete with triathlete type swim volume.

It gets better as you get more used to it. Interestingly, it can actually get easier as you swim harder in some cases, as for most folks, as they really start turning up their swim effort, they also flip faster/harder, so less time spent holding your breath underwater during the flip.

You'll eventually learn to time your last breath at the right moment, and as well your body will get used to the mild discomfort of holding your breath even while at effort.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Not to point out the obvious... but breathing is a three part action. In. Out. Hold.

The quality of any inhale is dependent upon the quality (volume) of the exhale.

Congrats to the OP for getting on w flip turns. Its a skill that too many triathletes just avoid that can greatly enhance their overall aquatic capacity.

Breathing into the turn is far less detrimental to velocity than breathing out of the turn. I would wager that those struggling after the flip are not utilizing the exhale to its fullest. One 'drill' to work on this physical activity and also satisfy the emotional challenge of being submerged is to hang on the surface of the water with your lungs full and then exhale until you being to sink (do this in shallow water to begin with and if needed you can have your hands anchored on the wall to stop your fall). Once you start sinking allow yourself to go as far as comfortable before you return to the surface.
From there, continue on your exploration of exhaling to sink.
You will find:
You have way more air in you than you thought
You can last longer than you ever dared thought (without air in your lungs) ** which will pale in comparison to the time needed to execute a flip turn and streamline and surface swim
And lastly, that after a few tries... it is kind of fun.

I think I have shared this before. But I have worked with many AOS who were physically gifted and developed to run marathons or compete in cycling event but could not do one lap of the pool without being 'gassed'...

Your aquatic breathing quality is ruled by your exhale.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [Abergili] [ In reply to ]
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Abergili wrote:
Practice some underwaters as part of warm up. I push off wall and go as far as I can underwater dolphin kicking and some days I do the whole 25 underwater coming up for air 2-3x. I can tell when I am in shape i can do it on 2 breaths and not breathing hard other times I kind of fall apart and can barely get back underwater to keep kicking.

Yeah I was going to suggest this. I try and finish each session with some underwater work, normally with fins. 10 x 25m underwater. The focus is on relaxing. Do it with a partner.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [Raw Vegan] [ In reply to ]
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Raw Vegan wrote:
Just take a breath before starting your turn. It comes with practice and eventually you don't even think about it.

^^^^^This.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [Abergili] [ In reply to ]
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Abergili wrote:
Practice some underwaters as part of warm up. I push off wall and go as far as I can underwater dolphin kicking and some days I do the whole 25 underwater coming up for air 2-3x. I can tell when I am in shape i can do it on 2 breaths and not breathing hard other times I kind of fall apart and can barely get back underwater to keep kicking.


Most people I know can do 25 yards underwater with one breath at the start.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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underwater hypoxic training can cause shallow water blackouts. Not worth the risk, and not much benefit, for a triathlete wanting to learn how to breathe in and out of flip turns.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Abergili wrote:
Practice some underwaters as part of warm up. I push off wall and go as far as I can underwater dolphin kicking and some days I do the whole 25 underwater coming up for air 2-3x. I can tell when I am in shape i can do it on 2 breaths and not breathing hard other times I kind of fall apart and can barely get back underwater to keep kicking.


Most people I know can do 25 yards underwater with one breath at the start.

Those are so much fun. I'm in a 50m pool now and haven't done them in a while. 50m might be a real challenge. Lol.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [PowerPlay] [ In reply to ]
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PowerPlay wrote:
underwater hypoxic training can cause shallow water blackouts. Not worth the risk, and not much benefit, for a triathlete wanting to learn how to breathe in and out of flip turns.


Which is why I said do it with a partner. And it will teach him how to deal with C02 build up, breath control and how to control the feeling of panic. He can fix it with an improvement in fitness, tumble turn speed/technique, but also psychologically. Your mind is telling you, you need to breathe as you're about to drown, you're not going to drown, you are not breathing for 3 secs, that's it. You tell your mind you will get to breathe in 3 seconds and it gets much easier. This is one of the reasons why people can double their breath holds after doing a 2 day apnea training course.
Last edited by: zedzded: Feb 10, 21 19:59
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Your mind is telling you, you need to breathe as you're about to drown, you're not going to drown, you are not breathing for 3 secs, that's it.

------

Whenever we do breath holding for master's, I actually tell the swimmers the opposite...."If you need to breath, please breath...". Not a lot gained imo from doing a full underwater that other breath control methods can accomplish the same thing in a safer manner imo. But to each their own, just as a professional coach I would be very hesitant to suggest some of the things that's being suggested to likely an AOS with "breath holding" swims (most especially at the end of the set when fatigue is high and decision making may be compromised).

Eta: But to answer the OP:

1) bravo for working on it, I would tell you just like I tell one of my master girls, relax coming off the wall.

2) I wouldn't worry so much at the back end of the workout, see if you can slowly progress to getting further a long with it, but I would start in the warm up....Every flip turn is done with no breath on the 1st stroke. Get that success and see how it starts to translate into the main set and end of set.

3) bravo for trying/working on it. I think flip turns are one of the best forms of water comfort / breath control that will translate into open water confidence.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 10, 21 20:15
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:

------

Whenever we do breath holding for master's, I actually tell the swimmers the opposite...."If you need to breath, please breath...". .

I don't understand that. One of the reasons for hypoxic drills is to train your body and mind how to cope when you can't breathe. For example many novice open water swimmers struggle when they have an OWS in adverse conditions, because they go to breathe and get a mouthful of water and they panic. Sometimes in open water with choppy conditions you can't breathe when you want to, instead of every 2, it's 4 or 6 strokes. So how do you do hypoxic training if you tell someone they should breathe whenever they feel the need. Because that will be every 2 strokes, not every 6 or 8.
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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I believe you said that doing underwater 25 is “only 3 seconds more” of breath holding. That makes no sense to me considering for most part ppl do bi lateral or when they come off the wall w flip turn it’s no where close to that: amount of time.

So doing a full 25 is much further and I can do much safer breath control work than having to go a whole 25. Thus if we are doing a full 25 underwater and a persons feels the need to truly breath....please fucking come up and breath over holding your breath. So if they normally breath every 3s and suddenly hold their breath for 6sand aren’t at 25m yet and get flustered and want air.....it’s irrelevant if they came up early or not. They already accomplished the goal of comfort, breath control and not panicking. Thus why I say breath at end of day vs olding your breath for only 3s more. They already held their breath for longer than normal etc so this arbitrary full 25m of no breath is a stupid and my opinion can be a dangerous metric. So it’s not just “3s more” they prob already have doubled their time w/o air if they are doing breath control work. So suggesting 10 x 25m of no breath at the end of a set is a lot of work at no air when already likely fatigued. Thus in my professional opinion if they need to breath at 18’m, breath over “holding your breath longer”.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 11, 21 3:08
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Re: Flip Turn Breathing - Breathing into the wall/ Breakout Stroke [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I believe you said that doing underwater 25 is “only 3 seconds more” of breath holding. .

Nah I meant 3s taken to do the tumble-turn.
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