Dude, you're skinny!

I'm jealous. Hs.

I'm expecting someone or some might say that your saddle is a tad high as your foot is extending while pedaling. I kinda do the same, but that's my thought. Good luck!

jesus your lean, id say gain weight, watts and health


(i dont know your background health/life info ect just a judgement from what i see)

I'd suggest you invest in a razor for those hairy legs! ;)

Eat a cheeseburger dude

I’ll bite since everyone seems to want to focus on anything that’s not your question.

I think you look best when you’ve slid up on the pads and resting your hands are resting over the top of your shifters. In your normal video you look like your back is too humped and your head is too low.

Would wait for one of the actual fit gurus to speak up, but I’m going to guess that you’re on the wrong saddle for you since it looks like you’re bending in the back instead of rolling at the hips.

Okay I love this:




and this:





Not sure if those two correlate and I am guessing they don't but they're likely close.


Also, don't listen to the haters about being thin, besides I saw some belly fat you need to work on. Seriously, though, it will take time to adapt to those positions if you want to rock them for a full and then who knows how you'll run off of them. They should be fast though.


I am all for the narrow is aero camp and my setup is plenty comfy for me, but I don't swim before or run after. YMMV


I would work on raising your head a bit so you can see as there looks to be space that you can use that might not cost you watts. There tends to be zones for some people where their head position can vary a bit and not impact their CdA a whole lot.


The short of it is the optics on the above looks damn good, but you won't know without testing it whether the advantage is worth it and then you'll need some time to get used to holding that.... at least I did.

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My YouTubes

No fitting advice, just came here to post: 4.1 watt/kg for almost 4 hours?

Damn.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Saddle is high. Drop the saddle 1 cm, drop the cockpit 1 cm, and move the cockpit forward just slightly - 5-10 mm.

I really liked your general position before you went after the end of the extensions. When you did that, you looked like your saddle was uncomfortable and your posture wasn't relaxed at all.

Do you stay put on the saddle when you drop the hammer or do you slide forward?

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Or even better would be to keep the saddle height where it is and shorten your cranks to 165 mm. Or go to 160 or 155 and raise the saddle 5-10 mm or so.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

wow!

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

His posture is good enough that I don't think he absolutely has to drop his front end from an aero standpoint. As his shoulders are lower than the highest point on his back. Now the changes you suggest might change that high point, but maybe a wait and see approach? i.e. one change at a time.

Also, not arguing against the saddle drop as I see what you see, but 4.1 watts/kg for four hours seems like it's working. Is it working in spite of or due to, I can't say.

Just thoughts, not disagreements.

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My YouTubes

Fantastic riders can ride fast in all sorts of positions. This dude is clearly a fantastic rider. And his saddle is also a little too high.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Additionally, I've your same hesitation many times before. I've provided fit feedback a few times with the caveat that the goal is to ride fast, not to satisfy the bike fitter. But usually, it's possible to do both.

And sometimes, the athlete does what they want anyway.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks everyone for your replies! I really appreciate people taking the time. To reply to the replies:

I am pretty lean naturally, and when you combine that with endurance training, I get even leaner - currently I'm about 65-66kg but "racing weight" when really well trained is 62(ish!)kg (6ft1). I don't "try" to be this weight, or to lose weight for races, it just is what it is. I certainly eat loads! I do some weights and squats but don't ever seem to be able to "bulk up" muscularly.

A razor, haha - Specialized did a study where they found shaving legs is worth a minute per hour, they were surprised it was so much. So yes, if I ever race again, I will shave the legs! I also saw that Huub's top-end tri suit is worth 5 minutes in an Ironman over their long-course tri suit. I'm assuming here, but I'm guessing the difference between my cheap 2-piece and the Huub long-course suit could be another 5 minutes, so there's another 10 minutes there. I'm also thinking faster tyres and latex tubes would surely be another 5ish minutes, and I am hoping that the few little aero tweaks I make (aero stem, aero computer mount, and positioning tweaks) could save another 5 minutes. So that's a fairly significant 25 minutes, in theory anyway, which gets me under 5 hours...

I can do 4.1w/kg for 4 hours in a stand-alone time trial, but to be able to actually run the marathon and not end in the "death trudge", I can only do about 3.1w/kg in an Ironman (6 hrs 15 mins at IMUK and 5:24 at Kona). Haven't quite worked out why my Ironman performances aren't as good as my standalone times suggest they should be (71min HM PB and 32min 10K PB would suggest I should run a 3 hour IM marathon but my best has only been 3:22...

It does look like my toes are a little pointy, especially at the 6 o'clock position. I have a naturally pointy-toe riding style, but I will certainly try dropping the saddle - my only concern there is that this will close the hip angle and have my thigh coming into my chest, but I will try it. Also agree it is probably worth moving the cockpit a touch further forward - current stem is 120mm, but I have a new 130mm aero stem, so that'll do that job there. I think I will also move the arm pads a bit closer together. I am not sure about lowering it any further though - I will try it, but I have already lowered it - it was 2cm higher at Kona and throughout 2018-2019 (see photos below). It does make sense that I could raise my head a bit because it probably doesn't need to be any lower than the top of my back.

I'd love to try shorter cranks, but sadly that's not a "quick change", nor is it a cheap one (especially with then needing a new powermeter). I have been keeping my eye out for a second-hand set and will continue to do this.

I seem to hump my back when I "turtle", but I have to work to hold that position - the more natural position is for a flatter back as in the photos below. I don't think I move too much on the saddle when I put the power down.

Thanks for all the pointers - I will post back when I have made the changes.

Any further thoughts would be welcomed! Thanks!

The position itself looks really good. In terms of aerodynamics, you won’t get significantly better with any changes.

My question would be how is your comfort in the position. The defining factor past the fit is the duration you can maintain the position in the aero bars over the course of the 112 miles. Silly to look into suits and shaved legs for marginal gains if you are spending a fair amount of time out of the aero bars. Time out meaning coming up simply to destress the body during a time in the race where you should be in aero bars, excluding climbs or takeovers where leverage is needed. Can you maintain this position, relatively comfortably, without coming up for several hours at a time?

I believe this, not cda, is what separates Frodeno from say Sanders, who puts out more power at equal weight but still have time discrepancies. Lionel does not train in the TT position as Jan seems to, and I would assume Lionel spends less time in the TT position. Just a theory.

One thing I have noticed with the top long course guys is the aero bars are level with the ground, as opposed to angling up. You lose some control and frontal area, but in return you gain long term comfort. In my experience at least, it is just an observation and theory of mine.

I’d also be curious as to how your run feels with the pedaling action having such a dramatic plantar flexion. Not to say it’s incorrect by any means, but I feel that certain repetitive use and fatigue of the foot and ankle in such a manner would be detrimental to the run. Ive seen many guys moving the cleat back on the foot and using more of a heel stroke for what I would assume to relieve stress on the foot for the run.

All else aside, you do look impressive and obviously put out great numbers. If you are comfortable and confident as you are, then put good thought in before making changes !

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Strava

It’s not just the toe pointing. Your knee is extended past where I’d want it.

The picture of the full extension from Kona looks better than the video you attached.

Do what you wish but if you want a fitter’s opinion, your saddle needs to come down a bit.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Lionel said in the past couple of months that he was going to train more in TT position.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

@trentnix
@TRIPRO
@rsjrv99
Thanks very much for your comments, really appreciate your input. I have dropped the front end by 1cm, lengthened the front end by just under 1cm, brought the arm pads a bit closer together, and I have lowered the saddle by 1cm and then 2cm. I would love to try 165mm cranks, but I will have to keep an eye out for something second-hand so that's not an immediate change I can make unfortunately...!

Video links and photos are below.

It's interesting to note that my toe pointing doesn't really change with saddle height - it still looks to me like the same level of toe-pointing. I guess if I put the saddle down even more, I would still have a "pointy toe" pedalling action. I take your point about knee extension. My knee doesn't "feel" too extended when riding but it does "look" a bit too extended in the original position. It seems slightly less extended at the 6 o'clock position as the saddle height drops, but the other leg at 12 o'clock does then feel a bit more "bunched up", but I suppose this is normal and it's going to feel like that, less normal, as I've been riding the old position for a couple of years. With the saddle 2cm lower, it did feel like it was getting slightly more towards a road bike position.

I can generally hold the position for a good long while. I've got my base bars quite high compared to the aero bars so when I come up to the upright position, e.g. on a climb etc, then I get good "relief" and a good stretch, compared with if the base bars were low. I do accept I probably could train a bit more in the aero position! I think with the new longer/lower front end, my forearms are a bit more horizontal. My running feels fine off the bike, but again I am quite a "pointy" runner. I think that's just the way I am and there's not much I can do abut fundamental biomechanics. One concern I do have is (especially on the turbo) when I'm doing anything other than a very easy pace, my heart rate goes up by up to 10bpm in the aero position compared with when upright.

Based on my comments and the videos/photos below, what would your thoughts be on the new positions? I'd be hugely grateful for any further thoughts/comments! Many thanks!

Tri bike, original position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PTlWJ9USz0&feature=youtu.be

Tri bike, saddle 1cm lower, front end 1cm lower, front end 1cm longer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WNmiqCFuwI&feature=youtu.be


Tri bike, saddle 2cm lower, front end 1cm lower, front end 1cm longer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylMIcNXryDo&feature=youtu.be

Original position below, on the road



Original position below, on the turbo



1cm lower saddle, 1cm lower front end, 1cm longer front end - below



2cm lower saddle, 1cm lower front end, 1cm longer front end - below

Both videos after making changes look better.

I'm good with either saddle height (I'd probably split the difference and be 15 mm down instead of 10 or 20).

Give it some riding on the road and see what you think.

On your toe pointing - that's not uncommon. The only problem I've seen from toe-pointing is when people struggle with calf cramping off the bike. It's rare, but I've seen it a few times. In those cases, I ask riders to drive power through your lower leg, not through their toes. If you're not having any issues getting off and running, I'm not really worried about it (because I don't have much control over it).

One thing - cleat placement can play a role in toe pointing in some cases, but a fitter can't really assess and affect cleat placement via a forum like this.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks very much for all your input. I've settled on somewhere between 10-15mm lower. 20mm felt a bit too bunched up. Will see how it goes!

Any other comments are welcome but thanks to everyone for the positive responses!

John

Hi again, for the last time! I've tweaked the road bike position now too - thanks for your suggestions. I wasn't able to exactly meet your suggestions because I only had scope to move the saddle 7mm forward, not 2cm like you suggested. I have made the saddle 7mm lower and 7mm forward, and the handlebars are now 18mm forward and 7mm lower. I guess my thigh looks quite horizontal when that leg is at the top of the pedal stroke, which maybe isn't ideal, but I think the knee position when powering down and at the bottom (to my untrained eye anyway) looks better.


The original video of the original position is in the original post, the new position video (just a short 4-second clip) is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdbGl2pqD9Y&feature=youtu.be


Some before and after photos are below ("before" photos have the ass-saver mudguard on my saddle). Any final thoughts much appreciated! Thanks all!

Saddle is just a slight bit low now. Maybe raised 5 mm.

How does the new position feel?

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

One point I notice. As I'm late to the party.......

Looking great, great power and athlete to go with it. Just that the "real world" photo has the head popped up on the TT setup. You're in a really long time period on that bike. I can't foresee a more TT like head position of eyes 10 yards in front of you and able to lick the extensions as necessarily really equating 1 for 1 to the real world for all 4 hours of the bike leg.

I do that when I TT because I have pre-ridden the course, or it is my "training route" and I know the potholes and side roads. So not much need to look.

But, there's no way to pre-ride memorize 112mi of bike route and expect to stare like that. Not even having to do with comfort, just not knowing the course and needing to look.

Just me, as a nobody that does TT and not long course tri........so maybe a worthless observation.........but I'd maybe not depend on a position so much designed around the head so so low. For a 10mi or 25mi, sure.........both under an hour.

Other thing........I've always found my stack has a bigger impact on aero than pad width. But pad width has a bigger impact on my power production...........just me. I run my pads pretty narrow, but not as narrow as yours. But, my hands are pretty close as I rotate the extensions toward center. My reasoning is that if from a front-on view my pad width is such that they are still equal or inside of my leg looking back........still good.


As for road bike..........I can't comment. I don't do anything longer than 2 hours racing wise. So, my road bike setup is meant to stay elbows bent hands on the hoods machine gunner look the whole time.