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Re: Finish line bs again! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone with a family who decides to do an Ironman impacts their family, but truthfully, it hurt me more than them. Please don't feel sorry for my kids. All kids have an incredible ability to adapt to whatever situation that they're put in and just accept it. My point is that they followed their dad around for a boring (for them) 5 days and 14 hours in the car.

When they approach YOU and want to be a part of the finish because they think it would be cool and they see other kids doing it AND you can do it in such a way as to not impact others enjoyment of the event, it gives you the opportunity to give them a little bit of fun in what is otherwise a very boring 5 days ... and if it is sanctioned by the event and you're doing it with consideration for others where is the harm?

Again I fully support regulating it, including numbers, ages, separate finish lines, etc., but just a big blanket "throw them all off the pier" is plain silly. Like it or not, it has become an integral part of the event. If you think there is demand, go ahead and start a new iron-distance race "The No Family in the Finish Chute 140.6-Man". I'm sure people will come from all over for that one.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
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Re: Finish line bs again! [MPB1950] [ In reply to ]
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Please don't feel sorry for my kids. Where in my scenario how were other race participants negatively affected?

If I had seen you approaching from behind, I surely would have recognized the killer glint in your steely eyes and let you pass. Believe it or not these two camps can coexist ... this isn't Israel and Palestine here.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
Last edited by: Strider124: Oct 25, 06 8:26
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
When they approach YOU and want to be a part of the finish because they think it would be cool and they see other kids doing it AND you can do it in such a way as to not impact others enjoyment of the event, it gives you the opportunity to give them a little bit of fun in what is otherwise a very boring 5 days ... and if it is sanctioned by the event and you're doing it with consideration for others where is the harm?


I was agreeing with you until this paragraph...again, as both Fleck and I have pointed out, it's evidence of a bigger problem in society. Parent don't have the gonads to say NO when our kids ask for something we know they should not have. My kids have already asked to cross a finish line with me (not for a full IM), and for my first IM next year, and my answer was simply, "No. Just because someone else breaks the rules doesn't mean we do. If you want to cross that finish line, train for it and EARN IT."

Let's rewrite your point this way, "When they approach YOU and want to take drugs because they think it would be cool and they see other kids doing it AND you can do it in such a way as to not impact others enjoyment of the activity, it gives you the opportunity to give them a little bit of fun in what is otherwise a very boring life." Especially for you non-parents, I'm sure you see those parents every day - the one's who give their kids everything they want to avoid embarassment, or disappointing their kids. Those kids grow up to be the same and even worse, and thus begins the never ending slide into unethical behavior because "I want it". Whaaaaaaaa! I want a lollipop NOW!!!!

Don't change your principles just because it fits into what you want. The new social order LOVES to change their principles when it fits their needs...what ever happened to absolute principles? They are disappearing along with everything else. Teach yours kids how to say NO, teach them delayed gratification, and teach them to EARN what they get, not whine until someone gives it to them in spite of the rules.

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Re: Finish line bs again! [OC Ben] [ In reply to ]
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Thats great!!!! I will have to come up with something like that when I finish IMCDA. Got to be something different. I have a few months to think about it!!!

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Finish line bs again! [NamssoB] [ In reply to ]
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The point here is that they/we weren't breaking rules. It was sanctioned by the race. We completed waivers and respected our fellow competitors.

I respect the point you're trying to make, I really do, and I say NO plenty to my kids. The fact is that the option was offered and coordinated by the event, I took added steps not impact others (staying to the side, letting people pass, etc.). To compare it to drug use is a bit of a stretch don't you think.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
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Re: Finish line bs again! [NamssoB] [ In reply to ]
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Great post!



Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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I think someone should to enter an IM just for this purpose. When Joe Ironman has his family standing in front of themat the finish line they just keep sprinting full speed and crash as hard into the group as possible - then file a massive lawsuit.

Seriously someone needs to do this. As one poster said, WTC doesn't care until there's a lawsuit so let's get moving on this

____________________________________________________
"don't you know that slow is the new fast? :)" -Turtlegirl
"I'm not a Dr., I just played one with your mom...." Stallion1031
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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Can you please show me the WRITTEN rules for the race you did that said outside assistance, family, or what ever you want to call it, was allowed on the race course. For me, if they have a published WRITTEN rule that states this is legal, then there is nothing more to say. But, so far, I have never seen or heard of such a thing.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think that kids/family etc should be on the course, that being said, if it's not unsafe....I probably dont care enough to argue.

Now...how many of you supporting having your kids cross the line with you...would ever cross the line with them in any of their athletic endeavours? Sounds stupid, but many would argue it's the same thing.


Thanks to Euro-Sports for my H3Cs.

http://www.euro-sports.ca
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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Allan,

Are'nt you glad you started this thread? How's your in-box?

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 25, 06 10:09
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Re: Finish line bs again! [NamssoB] [ In reply to ]
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Who actually cares what you think? Until IMNA starts DQ'ing people for it, let alone providing a kid waiting area, they are allowing it! Get over it people.

Actually check that. I want H20fun to write another post about how it doesn't exactly follow the rules of outside assistance.

Do it H20, let me hear it one more time. Maybe it'll get through to everybody this time!
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Re: Finish line bs again! [ErnieK] [ In reply to ]
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Ernie,

I think that all people want is clarity - and right now there does not seem to be any on this issue.

- 3 or 4 to 1 on Slowtwitch are against it

- It clearly states in the rules that it is not allowed.

- A show of hands at an IM pre-race dinner showed that a majority in that audience wanted it.

- There are reports that at some races there have been special provisions made to accomodate it, but not in all races.

- Race announcers encourage it.

- If you did the same thing 400m further back on the run course you would be DQ'd.

Are you still with me?

I am no rule freak, nor am I for ruining a special family moment, but it would be nice to understand where on earth we are on this issue.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Ernie,

- A show of hands at an IM pre-race dinner showed that a majority in that audience wanted it.


Fleck[/reply]

I was there for that and it was a joke. The question was asked and everyone looked around at everyone else and slowly the hands started to raise. Nobody wanted to be "the guy" to say that it shouldn't be allowed. Quite a scientific study of what people want.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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This argument is no different from powercranks or clyds divisions. I can't say anything in my post that hasn't been said in a thousand posts before, so where are we?

IMNA is stuck because the athletes want to bring family across the line. Right now, they are allowed and have come to expect the right. Take that away, and people are going to get pissed regardless of what people say. Seems pretty clear to me - E
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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If I ever finish an Ironman, I think my kids should be allowed to cross the finish line with me. I mean, they have been working hard in the sweatshops so that I can buy new race wheels.
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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So you listen to your buddy if he tells you to steal (the moment) from someone else?

Even if there is a law/rule that says: You shall not steal.

So you are gonna ahead and later claim that it is o.k. because someone told you?

Are you serious?

So if someone from IMNA (who obviously is somewhat challenged in reading and understanding the rules of competition) raises the question pre-race in a public setting and in a suggestive way (illegal anyhow), he also should be held responsible.

It is a slippery slope: Next IM pre-race meeting they are gonna ask you if you are against strollers (you know, she had a real difficult birth) and motorized scooters (my wife always accompanies me during my training rides) on the course?

You are not gonna get off the hook with me.
And yo are gonna get a big "Thank you" for making our sport the object of ridicule!

___________________________________________
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sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Oct 25, 06 10:37
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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We let people pass at the end to get a clear finish. We cleared the chute quickly. What's your problem?

The complaints are that more and more particpants AREN'T doing these things. If everyone did these, there wouldn't even be an issue.

[1] waking up in the morning every day for 4+ months asking their mother "Where's Daddy?" [2] being stuffed into a car for a 7 hour drive to upstate NY [3] spending the last several days holed up in a hotel room/condo out of their normal routine and experiencing pouring rain the day before [4] being awakened at 5am and standing around for 12 hours to see a glimpse of Dad 3 or 4 times

IMO, there are much more family-friendly ways to do things.

Early in your post you asked, "What's the problem?". From one dad to another (and in a friendly voice), I think that would be a very appropriate (and critical) question to ask yourself. Your family will still be in your heart and your mind/thoughts.

In short, next time make the race part of a family vacation (doing mostly family things), don't make the race the vacation. We did this and it was awesome. My wife, kids, and parents/sister wanted to go back the next year (with wife and sister doing the 1/2Mary).

If I was travelling "just for the race", I would go solo or with buddies.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Oct 25, 06 10:31
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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How could there be agreement about this? There are several distinct categories of IMH being held on the same day on same course. Whether the rules are spelled out, they're clearly different for the quite separate races.

No one can accompany you on the course.
Unless: One of the announcers at this IMH was behind me some years ago walking with Susan Molnar who was being featured on the tv broadcast as a fluffo plumpo doing this as part of her new regime to future thinness. That's okay with me.
Unless: It's minutes from the bewitching hour and everybody wants that final person to make a dramatic ending to an exciting day, so out goes a team to help her. I think that's to be expected.
No Unless about it! You're a pro, this is your day job and his and her day jobs, so you'd better earn it. No team sport here. Agree!

There are *I just want to finish* heads up participants with their family in tow, trying to make a vacation for them. Take the chute on the right please. 50 year old racers who put in hours like pros and are out to beat the other 50 year olds. Straight ahead! Survivors of all sorts of stuff are out there and should have their own chute and plenty of camera action.

There are not many rules that can apply uniformly to such a motley group. For sure the guy posing for tv under the scoreboard should have moved over for me and for sure your stroller and dog should not interfere even with a race between 65 year olds. Believe me, they are really racing.

But. And yet. Still. Ironman Hawaii is so much more than the standard pro or amateur event. It really does represent a wide assortment of ideas about physical activity and competition and camaraderie. How can you possibly be even-handed and pure without conducting several races over a period of days with different strokes for different folks. That's not a bad idea either. I certainly don't mean drop the rules, but make them appropriate for that particular population.

By the way, my chocolate lab ran every mile with me in preparation for several IMHs. If anyone ever sacrificed and deserved to be in the finishing chute with me, it was Patty. Being so protective, she would have ensured a clear finish for me.

rtk
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Re: Finish line bs again! [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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For the rules debate, there is obviously a rule against outside assistance, etc. I think we all agree that it technically applies here. IMNA is also clearing supporting violation of that rule. My question is, if they are now following USAT rules, don't you have to apply to USAT for a deviation from those rules, and if so, have they?
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Re: Finish line bs again! [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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So you listen to your buddy if he tells you to steal (the moment) from someone else?

Even if there is a law/rule that says: You shall not steal.

So you are gonna ahead and later claim that it is o.k. because someone told you?

Are you serious?

So if someone from IMNA (who obviously is somewhat challenged in reading and understanding the rules of competition) raises the question pre-race in a public setting and in a suggestive way (illegal anyhow), he also should be held responsible.

It is a slippery slope: Next IM pre-race meeting they are gonna ask you if you are against strollers (you know, she had a real difficult birth) and motorized scooters (my wife always accompanies me during my training rides) on the course?

You are not gonna get off the hook with me.
And yo are gonna get a big "Thank you" for making our sport the object of ridicule!


OK, this is my last post on the subject. The fact is that IMNA runs the race and they have de facto sanctioned the activity by creating releases, volunteer positions, a published process (they had a flyer and booth describing how it should work), and allowing it to occur.

If it wasn't sanctioned, i.e., IMNA says no more family finishes, that is absolutely fine with me and I (and I would hope most others) will respect the rule and not complain. To be honest it isn't that big a deal for me. I got a picture with the kids away from the finish line which turned out better anyway.

Ultimately I think your argument is with IMNA for having and allowing family finishes and the people who abuse the process IMNA has put in place impacting others' races, so I will withdrawal from that debate. I only sought to provide a little of the other side of the argument and suggest that the two positions may not be completely unreconcilable, but as with a lot of things these days the debate has polarized and the issue become binary.

Lastly, for the record I am neither a thief or a drug user nor do I condone these activities to my children, and in truth find those analogies a bit simplistic.

Happy racing all,

Keith

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
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Re: Finish line bs again! [rtk] [ In reply to ]
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At one time there was a real reverence for that finish line and the boxy archway surrounding it. As the structure went up the day before the race, we would all walk respectfully around it, taking great care not to casually step through the portal itself for fear of pissing off the TriGods. Maybe it was just superstition, but I like to think there was a shared sense of genuine reverence for something that meant so much to all of us.

Corny? Hell yes. But ya gotta have SOME things in life that you treat with great respect and reverence. I can see how the "family" folks still feel they're treating the line with great reverance, but somehow it's not the same. The line is for the people who have "walked through the fire", so to speak. For those who truly believe this, that line is cheapened by so many people who have not done that walk waltzing on through. They don't mean any harm by it, they're sharing the joy of their related "firewalker". But they themselves have not actually walked the walk. That feels wrong.

And then you've got episodes like the little kid on Saturday who ran across the line with mom or dad, then promptly ran back the other way through the finish archway to retrieve what looked like a fuelbelt somewhere back in the chute, then came back yet again to cross the line. So much for reverence.

Forgive the hyperbole, but it's like allowing a kid to play hopscotch on an altar. The kid doesn't mean any harm, but it's disrespectful.

IMNA is speaking out of both sides of its mouth with this business of providing an entire infrastructure to SUPPORT the family finishes--- "holding pens", waivers, bracelets, assigned volunteer staff! That pretty much sounds like condoning the practice to me, while at the same time the race rules clearly state that no one is allowed on the course except for racers, and outside assistance is not permitted. IMNA, are you not seeing the conflict here? Being that ambivalent isn't fair to anyone!

Perhaps, if they can provide that amount of infrastructure to support the practice, they really SHOULD go the whole nine yards and provide a complete second finish line. But I have to say, one thing about this that irritates me is that it amounts to the rulebreakers ultimately being rewarded for breaking the rule. "Oh, a million people are violating the rule; I guess we will just have to give up on enforcing it."

In the end, it's the thing mentioned earlier about clarity: Is it a RACE, or is it a HUMAN DRAMA/FEEL GOOD/LIFE EXPERIENCE/FAMILY EVENT? I guess it's both. But it's cruxes like this that make that dichotomy uncomfortable. I guess it's always been both, but there was a little more clarity in "the old days" about the race part taking precedence over the "life experience" part.

I still DARE Triathlete or Inside Triathlon to tackle this!

TriBaby
"The rule is, jam yesterday, and jam tomorrow, but NEVER jam today." ---The White Queen


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Re: Finish line bs again! [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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When/if you have kids some day and they look you in the eyes and ask you if they can cross the finish line with you (having seen others do it at IMLP and other races), after:
  • waking up in the morning every day for 4+ months asking their mother "Where's Daddy?"
  • being stuffed into a car for a 7 hour drive to upstate NY
  • spending the last several days holed up in a hotel room/condo out of their normal routine and experiencing pouring rain the day before
  • being awakened at 5am and standing around for 12 hours to see a glimpse of Dad 3 or 4 times
Alternatively, you could spend more time with them for 4 months and not try to make up for all of that lost time by having a picture taken.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][b]When/if you have kids some day and they look you in the eyes and ask you if they can cross the finish line with you (having seen others do it at IMLP and other races), after: [/b] [ul] [li][b]waking up in the morning every day for 4+ months asking their mother "Where's Daddy?" [/b] [li][b]being stuffed into a car for a 7 hour drive to upstate NY [/b] [li][b]spending the last several days holed up in a hotel room/condo out of their normal routine and experiencing pouring rain the day before [/b] [li][b]being awakened at 5am and standing around for 12 hours to see a glimpse of Dad 3 or 4 times[/b][/li][/ul]Alternatively, you could spend more time with them for 4 months and not try to make up for all of that lost time by having a picture taken.[/reply]

Casey, possibly the first time ever that I am in total agreement with you.


______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.
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Re: Finish line bs again! [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Alternatively, you could spend more time with them for 4 months and not try to make up for all of that lost time by having a picture taken.


OK last post on this really. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that you mistook my statement. During IM training I was usually out of the house training early in the morning when the kids woke up. I spent plenty of time with them otherwise, made all of their weekend t-ball games etc.

But I imagine I waste my time typing this since you have me and my family all figured out in a few online posts. You should really go into private practice, your acumen is amazing.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
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Re: Finish line bs again! [TriBaby] [ In reply to ]
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[quote]In the end, it's the thing mentioned earlier about clarity: Is it a RACE, or is it a HUMAN DRAMA/FEEL GOOD/LIFE EXPERIENCE/FAMILY EVENT? I guess it's both. But it's cruxes like this that make that dichotomy uncomfortable. I guess it's always been both, but there was a little more clarity in "the old days" about the race part taking precedence over the "life experience" part.

That has always been a problem for me. The tv coverage has been especially irritating, but I understand why it is that way. For me, it is a race, pure and simple; all that human drama/heartsy fartsy stuff is lost on me. How about a baby being nursed crossing the finish line. Oh that would be gooooood. Nevertheless, why should I expect the tv audience to be interested in the physical event and why would sponsors support it? Let's face it. We are sources of entertainment and the baby and doggy stuff makes it possible for the viewers to connect. Actually, Tribaby, I agree with you 100%. I'm just trying to explain to myself why I can't have it my way; my way just isn't the way of the majority, not the viewers and not those most eager to be viewed.

rtk
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