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Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong
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This has probably been proposed before but given I read almost all of the drafting threads here I thought maybe, just maybe, it hadn't, so here goes.

The problem:

1) Too many athletes coming out of T1 together creating packs
2) Not enough motos and/or willingness to enforce from the officials (and enforcement is difficult, generally)
3) Penalties AND the chance of being caught are low, so the overall risk of a penalty is certainly very low and the reward for drafting is potentially very high

Solution:

Create "No Passing" zones where athletes are required to space out to legal distance or face an instantaneous penalty.

The details: You let athletes come out of T1 normally, because holding people up at the mount line would be chaotic. But after a few miles (or whatever is safe) you create a semi-narrow "no pass" zone with 2 sets of RFID sensors set up 12m apart. These are VERY clearly marked and warnings are given in intervals leading up to the sensors, so there are no surprises. If you cross the back sensor before the athlete in front of you passes the front sensor, you get an instant penalty and your name/number is displayed on an LED board to notify you of that penalty. There would be penalty tents at the end of these zones.

There could also be an RFID sensor at the beginning and end of the "no pass" zone and you would be penalized if you pass an athlete in the zone.

This can be set up a few times on the course, maybe 2 times on a HIM course and 3-4 on an IM course. The immediate effect would be the spacing out of the field. Packs may still form but the forced spacing will make it a lot harder.

This also doesn't cost a billion dollars like drones and/or monitoring by police aircraft and is pinpoint accurate, unlike GPS.

Now, there is probably zero incentive for WTC to implement this, but maybe a local race director or two could try it to win over athletes who are tired of the rampant bending of the rules at the bigger races.

Convince me I'm wrong.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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So...you want people to slow down...during a race.

Yeah, that will never fly.

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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
So...you want people to slow down...during a race.

Yeah, that will never fly.

The end.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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With 2500+ people out on the bike course, I think you'd find that you would create an immediate bottle neck and folks would literally have to come to a stop, especially if this was set up even remotely close to T1.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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If you're talking about Kona, you're wrong, or at least changing the race, and not necessarily for the better.

Is the wait in front of this "penalty zone" in a huge pack time neutralized?

In Kona your idea would mean that the guys coming out of the water in 1h or so would be standing still waiting for their turn to pass this zone (can you imagine the mess) and it would gather the whole field together as a result. This in turn would make the packs even worse for the rest of the ride, not even considering the mad scramble leading up to the next penalty zone.

Queues are very dynamic things, and in a race like Kona it is not possible to avoid unless you drastically reduce the size of the field. But because they are so dynamic, they form and disappear around any single person quite quickly.

Worst was the climb to Hawi, other than that, it was bad only occasionally and on the way back perfectly ok. And, most of the people are very frustrated in these packs and would much rather race they own race.

btw. I think power meters and attempt to ride with equal power make things worse
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
So...you want people to slow down...during a race.

Yeah, that will never fly.

If you are passed the rules require you to slow down until you are out of the draft zone. This is already a requirement but not enforced. So yes.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [markko] [ In reply to ]
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markko wrote:
If you're talking about Kona, you're wrong, or at least changing the race, and not necessarily for the better.

Is the wait in front of this "penalty zone" in a huge pack time neutralized?

In Kona your idea would mean that the guys coming out of the water in 1h or so would be standing still waiting for their turn to pass this zone (can you imagine the mess) and it would gather the whole field together as a result. This in turn would make the packs even worse for the rest of the ride, not even considering the mad scramble leading up to the next penalty zone.

Queues are very dynamic things, and in a race like Kona it is not possible to avoid unless you drastically reduce the size of the field. But because they are so dynamic, they form and disappear around any single person quite quickly.

Worst was the climb to Hawi, other than that, it was bad only occasionally and on the way back perfectly ok. And, most of the people are very frustrated in these packs and would much rather race they own race.

btw. I think power meters and attempt to ride with equal power make things worse

There are already no passing zones (there is one in Kona 1-2 miles in, in fact) and as far as I can tell from the ones I have ridden there is not a mad scramble to get position before these zones.

You could put the first zone 5-10 miles in for some natural spacing out of T1 to occur. The zone would begin about a half mile before the checkpoint which would give packs time to space out before the sensors. If you have to coast, so be it - that was what you were supposed to do anyway when you were passed. No time neutralization.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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Rolling start is an excellent solutions, already implemented, and working well.

Your proposal will just slow down most athletes, for no visible gain. These "slow area" will not be more efficient than current controls, while being fucking frustrating for most.

If a race implement this, will not sign in...
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the best and only possible solution to this vexing problem: Make drafting legal for age groupers. LOL!!!

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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All they really need to do is allow us to use our front and rear mounted cameras during these races. Then we can use the footage to shame people online.
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Rolling start is an excellent solutions, already implemented, and working well.

Your proposal will just slow down most athletes, for no visible gain. These "slow area" will not be more efficient than current controls, while being fucking frustrating for most.

If a race implement this, will not sign in...

Oceanside 70.3 has this. A reason why I won't do that race
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to test this theory and how it will work out...just stall your car on a busy 2 lane road that's has cars moving consistently at 25 mph and block one lane.
Last edited by: Jason N: Oct 22, 18 14:07
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Rolling start is an excellent solutions, already implemented, and working well.
How has rolling start actually helped? Not attacking you, just genuinely asking. It seems to me in races I've been in, whether rollings start, wave start, or mass start, that there's a steady stream of riders headed out onto the course, and the congestion is unmitigated. And when the course is looped it's only worse. And rolling start also has eliminated racing against your competitors, now it's a race against the clock and you have no idea where you stand.

The arithmetic just doesn't work on a 56 mile course that has 2500 people on it. Each person only has 36m to themselves, and in reality the bell curve will show you it's even more congested in the middle than that. There's going to be passing and drafting, and yeah it stinks. The solution is smaller fields, but.. WTC. And they've obviously shown they don't care about our concerns on drafting otherwise they'd take it more seriously. And as long as the collective "we" keep entering their races, why would they?
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
rrheisler wrote:
So...you want people to slow down...during a race.

Yeah, that will never fly.


If you are passed the rules require you to slow down until you are out of the draft zone. This is already a requirement but not enforced. So yes.

I don't think you know the rules. If you are passed, the passer is going faster than you, and will most likely drop you from the draft zone in short order. Why do you have to slow down? What you have to do, and what isn't done and that causes the drafting, is not maintain (or even increase!) your power output/effort while simultaneously gaining a draft benefit and going faster.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Rolling start is an excellent solutions, already implemented, and working well.

Your proposal will just slow down most athletes, for no visible gain. These "slow area" will not be more efficient than current controls, while being fucking frustrating for most.

If a race implement this, will not sign in...

Yea, it will be frustrating because athletes can no longer draft and they will have to face the full onslaught of the wind. That's the point.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
The arithmetic just doesn't work on a 56 mile course that has 2500 people on it. Each person only has 36m to themselves, and in reality the bell curve will show you it's even more congested in the middle than that. There's going to be passing and drafting, and yeah it stinks. The solution is smaller fields, but.. WTC. And they've obviously shown they don't care about our concerns on drafting otherwise they'd take it more seriously. And as long as the collective "we" keep entering their races, why would they?

If only there were an option for cyclists to pass each other, rather than use only a single travel lane. Then you could actually fit more cyclists on a given course without drafting. Oh, wait...

The cyclists don't care about drafting: why should the WTC?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like this proposal may actually require people to stop not just slow down. Doesn’t seem practical or safe.
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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More of a general reply but I always wondered why the penalty is served on course vs in transition.
For example; if someone gets popped and gets a 2 min penalty why not hold them in transition?
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
ripple wrote:

The arithmetic just doesn't work on a 56 mile course that has 2500 people on it. Each person only has 36m to themselves, and in reality the bell curve will show you it's even more congested in the middle than that. There's going to be passing and drafting, and yeah it stinks. The solution is smaller fields, but.. WTC. And they've obviously shown they don't care about our concerns on drafting otherwise they'd take it more seriously. And as long as the collective "we" keep entering their races, why would they?


If only there were an option for cyclists to pass each other, rather than use only a single travel lane. Then you could actually fit more cyclists on a given course without drafting. Oh, wait...

The cyclists don't care about drafting: why should the WTC?
I think the majority of cyclists do care about drafting, but the general "monster pack of cyclists" draft effect is almost unavoidable in the mid-pack mass of humanity, and that's a product of field size and course length. The intentional drafting is BS. Next time I'll write it out long form, but I thought people wanted a solution to both? I do appreciate good sarcasm though. Unfortunately you didn't oblige.
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:

I don't think you know the rules. If you are passed, the passer is going faster than you, and will most likely drop you from the draft zone in short order. Why do you have to slow down? What you have to do, and what isn't done and that causes the drafting, is not maintain (or even increase!) your power output/effort while simultaneously gaining a draft benefit and going faster.

Come on - you know this isn't true if you are even remotely close in ability to the passer in races like Kona. When someone surges, passes me and drops in line in front of me, I could stay on their wheel easily with a 30-40% reduction in power. I literally have to almost coast for 20 seconds to get out of the draft zone in time, hence "slowing down".

The rule states that you need to get out of the draft zone immediately. The issue is when you have 20-30 guys in a train 1-2 bike lengths apart, they ALL pass you before you can legally pass the guy at the back again. It's ridiculous.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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Your reaction is typical of someone who don't pass much

On a bike leg, I pass a lot, constantly. Because I'm better rider than swimmer.

With your "proposal", I will be blocked behind slower biker. Nice race....

I will not sign up to a race if such a solution was implemented. I'm racing to go as fast as I can, not to wait. Happily, it will never happen.

If some peoples draft, I don't care, I'm not a pro. I race for fun, to beat my own time in a fair way. Not to block others.
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Sounds like this proposal may actually require people to stop not just slow down. Doesn’t seem practical or safe.

And I'll counter with video of the horrific crashes within the IMTX peletons that resulted in several people being sent to the hospital. But ok.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
klehner wrote:


I don't think you know the rules. If you are passed, the passer is going faster than you, and will most likely drop you from the draft zone in short order. Why do you have to slow down? What you have to do, and what isn't done and that causes the drafting, is not maintain (or even increase!) your power output/effort while simultaneously gaining a draft benefit and going faster.


Come on - you know this isn't true if you are even remotely close in ability to the passer in races like Kona. When someone surges, passes me and drops in line in front of me, I could stay on their wheel easily with a 30-40% reduction in power. I literally have to almost coast for 20 seconds to get out of the draft zone in time, hence "slowing down".

The rule states that you need to get out of the draft zone immediately. The issue is when you have 20-30 guys in a train 1-2 bike lengths apart, they ALL pass you before you can legally pass the guy at the back again. It's ridiculous.

When you are passed by a cyclist going .2mph faster than you, said cyclist will be 44' ahead of you after 15 seconds without you having to slow down at all. If there's a guy behind him going the same speed, he will also be 44' ahead of you after 15 seconds. Same goes for the 300 guys in line. You don't have to slow down one iota; in fact, you get to ride at your previous speed at about 30W. Doesn't matter how many guys there are in line: you get your 15 seconds for each one. And if they are all going faster than you when they pass (by definition), why are you expecting to repass them?

You make the point for me: by reducing your power, you can maintain your previous speed and allow the passer to clear your draft zone.

If you want to base your argument on the idea that all these passes are done with less than .2mph difference, then I won't bother discussing it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:


I will not sign up to a race if such a solution was implemented.

Is your not signing up for a race supposed to be a logical argument against my solution? I'm confused.

Strava
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Re: Feasible Solution for Drafting - Convince me I'm Wrong [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed. That too is unsafe. That doesn’t mean the response should be likewise unsafe.

Is your proposal limited to WTC events? The safety and practicality of your proposal could certainly depend on the course.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Oct 22, 18 14:58
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