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FatMax intervals
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Some time ago there was a webinar by Mathieu Heijboer (pro cycling team Lotto).
He mentioned FatMax intervals, but unfortunately I missed an example of these
intervals that his team does.

FatMax refers to an intensity – speed or power – at which the combustion of fat for energy production is
at the highest. It's typically below aerobic threshold and it's not exactly an easy pace

I am wondering if anybody has experience with these type of intervals (or maybe heard the
above webinar and took the notes).
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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This is one of those oft repeated misconceptions. It usually is some easy Z2 like pace where there is a little more calories burning from fat than carbs. BUT, if you go a bit harder, you burn a whole lot more calories total, so the total number of fat calories goes up as well.

Just work on total workout stress. More TSSs: more fat burnt.
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Re: FatMax intervals [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it would be upper end of Zone 2.

I guess this pace is not so strenuous that couldn't be done
as a continuous session.
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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Been using INSCYD this winter were the FatMax zone comes from and my experience and those that I have tested FatMax zone is around 60-65% of FTP (FTP = mFTP from WKO4).

But everyone is different and if someone is really good at using fat as fuel this % would go up.
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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MaxFat is indeed the zone of max fat consumption.

Look at the figure with 4 tables from link below : on the lower right table you will see the fat and CH consumption curves for Cameron Wurf. MaxFat is the green area (in power for bike). To be compared with a Max VO2 around 490w.

https://www.triathlete.com/...yclist-part-2_334218

For me MaxFat is, for bike and run (not swim) :

around 73% of FTP
around 53 % of Max VO2 power (from 48% to 58%)
from 65% to 73% of Max HR

MaxFat is the zone with maximum fat consumption, but not the ideal zone to train your muscles to use essentially fat, this one being base endurance zone.
Base endurance zone, to be used to reinforce muscle fat consumption while lowering lactate level (around 1mmol/L of lactate) and consequently limiting CH use to minimum, is a bit lower :

For me base endurance is : from 58% to 67% of Max HR

I do not use "zone 1, 2, 3" terms here because peoples use different references (several 5 zones definition, 7 zones definition, ...) and it become very confusing.
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Re: FatMax intervals [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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That is not true

From approx. 55% of Max VO2 power (for me approx 70% of Max HR), if you push more, fat consumption per hour is going down.

At FTP (for me approx 87% of max HR), fat consumption is nearly zero (for me less than 10g/hour, vs around 50g/h in maxfat zone).
At FTP your are pumping sugar. For me, 200g+ sugar vs 5g fat per hour. 10x less fat/hour than at maxfat zone.

Look at the curves I mention/link in my post above. These are the curves for Cam Wurf (Max VO2 power around 500w, for reference to the consumption curve). They apply for you also. You can see that after the MaxFat zone /green zone, fat consumption is going down, not only in %, but also in kcal/hour or grams/hour.

And the more you train pushing hard.... the less fat your muscle will use in the future, fat consumption going down sooner, at lower power....
This is the reason for 80/20 training.
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Feb 26, 19 1:43
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Re: FatMax intervals [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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The original FatMax work comes from Achten and Jeukendrup (Fatmax: A New Concept to Optimize Fat Oxidation During Exercise?
Eur J of Sport Sci 2001. https://www.researchgate.net/...tion_during_exercise)

Here are references from Jeukendrup himself:
http://www.mysportscience.com/...03/18/What-is-Fatmax
http://www.mysportscience.com/...our-fat-burning-zone

Whatever the FatMax intensity is (and as you can see above, it's not super easy to determine it
without some metabolic testing), my original question was: what are typical training sessions
at this intensity?

Continuous ride for X hours, intervals?
Last edited by: foobarx: Feb 26, 19 8:57
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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If your objective is endurance, for the 80% part of the 80/20 training, then it is not MaxFat but Base Endurance, continuous rides for several hours.

If objective is to reduce body fat %, then go MaxFat, also continuous ride for several hours. This is an easy intensity, just ride along 3, 4 or 5 hours.

In both cases with limited CH intake.
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Feb 26, 19 8:26
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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foobarx wrote:
The original FatMax work comes from Asker and Jeukendrup. Here are references from Jeukendrup himself:
http://www.mysportscience.com/...03/18/What-is-Fatmax
http://www.mysportscience.com/...our-fat-burning-zone

Whatever the FatMax intensity is (and as you can see above, it's not super easy to determine it
without some metabolic testing), my original question was: what are typical training sessions
at this intensity?

Continuous ride for X hours, intervals?


For what it's worth, Asker's name does not have an "and" in it.

To the OP:
Why are you interested in these types of workloads?

The above poster is a physiologist employed by PEARL iZUMi. However, statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of PEARL iZUMI in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
instagram.com/robertpickels
twitter.com/RobertPickels
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Feb 26, 19 8:22
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Re: FatMax intervals [foobarx] [ In reply to ]
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foobarx wrote:
Some time ago there was a webinar by Mathieu Heijboer (pro cycling team Lotto).

He mentioned FatMax intervals, but unfortunately I missed an example of these
intervals that his team does.

FatMax refers to an intensity – speed or power – at which the combustion of fat for energy production is
at the highest. It's typically below aerobic threshold and it's not exactly an easy pace



For the vast majority of athletes, maximal fat oxidation will occur at a very easy pace!


The average from all the tests I've performed to date had maximal fat oxidation occuring at 58% VO2max (~70% max heart rate).

That said, some very well trained athletes can hold max fat oxidation through to much higher intensities (some as high as 80% VO2max). In this case, breaking the workload up into intervals may be appropriate. This may well be the case for the professional cyclists mentioned in the webinar.

Additionally, at a certain point, for aerobic endurance sports, the emphasis will shift from 'raising the fat oxidation roof' to broadening its base into race specific ranges. For example, it doesn't (at least directly) do you much good having 10kcal per min max fat oxidation at 200W if you race at 300W. At this point, the use of sustained moderate aerobic intervals closer to endurance race pace to broaden the fat oxidation may be appropriate.

However, for most athletes, the best way to develop that initial maximal fat oxidation is with very long, very low intensity continuous training. I wrote a little more on that here...

https://alancouzens.com/...ng_fat_burning1.html

and here..

https://alancouzens.com/...ng_fat_burning2.html

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Feb 26, 19 10:32
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Re: FatMax intervals [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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...so, here's a question: what happens to your fat stores post-workout, once you depleted (or significantly reduced) your blood/muscle/liver sugar and glycogen stores?
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Re: FatMax intervals [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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Glycogen stored in muscles : around 16g per Kg of muscles.
Typically, I will be depleted maximum 150g of CH.
Only a small portion (if any) of this will be compensated with body fat. So maybe 10g of fat ? Maximum ?
The rest : CH absorption, protein absorption, muscle protein absorption.

While working at MaxFat, i will use 50g of fat per hour. 3h (done that few days ago) : 150g of fat used.

You will not burn fat working at FTP or above. Read the Alan Cousins papers.
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