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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
It’s us (AeroCoach) and there will definitely be numbers. Disc brake too as well as rim brake.


Are you guys doing 21 spokes with 2x NDS lacing like Roval? At the moment, if I were running a disc brake TT bike, Roval would be my only choice for a front wheel.
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
I'm surprised that there aren't more front wheels with narrow flange hubs. Maybe it's on the margins of marginal gains. But there are plenty of 74mm hub options for folding bikes that could potentially be used. Surely that would work OK with a 13mm spacer on either side?


It's been tried many times in the past, but those designs always disappeared after awhile. I don't know it's marketing or tech, or a little of both.

You lose stiffness with a narrow flange, and usually the spoke count is increased, which will increase the drag. Is that more than the gain from going narrow? With the industry's tendency to do things differently just for the sake of being different, I don't expect that there is much in it.
Last edited by: rruff: May 11, 19 12:10
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Allanhov] [ In reply to ]
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We're hoping to have orders open in about 4 weeks, there'll be a few different offerings. To be perfectly honest the most thing I'm worried about is people not believing the numbers when they see them, but hopefully we've shown thus far that we're very diligent when it comes to aero data.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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It's relatively tricky to do and you have to design the hub specifically to fit. There are some really fun small hubs (racing wheelchair front wheels for example use a very tiny Phil Wood hub that's extremely narrow)

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Rovals are good, that's for sure. Our disc brake fronts will be out with all the info in June.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
You lose stiffness with a narrow flange, and usually the spoke count is increased, which will increase the drag. Is that more than the gain from going narrow? With the industry's tendency to do things differently just for the sake of being different, I don't expect that there is much in it.

You can get that stiffness back by making the flange higher - we have deflection data on our website to show the stiffness is the same/better on our hub than others:https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/...ss-road-front-wheels[/url]

As for aero it's about 1w at 45kph over a typical yaw angle range for a standard hub. It's not a lot but when we also save 1w by hiding the valve in our rims, suddenly you're 2w up on everyone even before you've started optimising the rim shape.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Allanhov] [ In reply to ]
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There might not be a single fastest wheel. From everything I've experienced and heard, wheels interact a lot with tires and forks -- probably your legs too. I wonder for example, how much a really narrow front wheel helps when the wind goes around and then just slaps into your whirling legs. Maybe you're better off with a wheel that acts more like a fairing.

That's why I would not trust tests that just stick an isolated wheel in a test rig. I also wouldn't trust tests that use a single tire across all wheels. A tire that works with one wheel might be trash on another. You gotta test the tire that each wheel mfgr thinks is best -- and then adjust for the rolling resistance.

The problem is the variability of a pedaling rider might overwhelm the differences between wheels. So IMO, the only answer is a whole lot of testing--preferably with the rider who's actually going to use the wheels. Clearly the guys at Hed, Zipp, and Specialized are all really smart and have a lot of experience. But I would particularly trust Xavier et al, because they do a lot of testing with real riders and different equipment.

To give an example of how complicated this is, I do Chung tests nearly every Saturday and Sunday a.m. when I don't have a race. I've tested the Hed Jet+9 and the Enve front against each other half a dozen times now. The Hed has been faster every time, except the last time, when I tried a different tire on the Enve (sorry, my secret and don't try to PM me for the answer). Go figure. Of course my tests are all at zero yaw, so results could differ......

BTW, the Roval tested real slow in field tests.
Last edited by: jens: May 11, 19 20:13
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Xavier, if it’s possible we’d like to see the numbers for your front wheel compared to the current popular wheels like Enve, Zipp, Roval, similar like the numbers you published for your rear disc comparing to Zipp and Hed, but unfortunately missing the Enve disc and Roval 321. This is why I haven’t still figured which rear disc to get. As a consumer is good to have the full picture of products available before committing for a decision.
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [guillermoD] [ In reply to ]
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guillermoD wrote:
Hey Xavier, if it’s possible we’d like to see the numbers for your front wheel compared to the current popular wheels like Enve, Zipp, Roval, similar like the numbers you published for your rear disc ...

I'm not affiliated with Aerocoach, but they do have a comparison on their website. The names of the other wheels are not mentioned, but it's pretty easy to deduce what the other wheels and brands are



guillermoD wrote:
the numbers you published for your rear disc comparing to Zipp and Hed, but unfortunately missing the Enve disc and Roval 321. This is why I haven’t still figured which rear disc to get. As a consumer is good to have the full picture of products available before committing for a decision.

For the most part a disc is a disc is a disc. aka, you are looking at maybe a couple watts between different brands. Plus depending on what bike frame you are using, one disc could be faster than another.

I'll let you in on a little secret that could help you make a decision if you are stuck between choices and are trying to get as fast as possible
Hed Disc $1150 usd
Aerocoach Disc ~$1300 usd
Roval Disc $2500 usd
Zipp Disc $2700 usd
Enve Disc $2700 usd

Buy the Hed or Aerocoach and then use some of the $1200 you save and go to a wind tunnel.

Matt
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:

A tire that works with one wheel might be trash on another.

And here you highlighted something crucial. Nearly all the big brands like Enve, Hed, Zipp and Specialized has "the fastest wheel", but they usually optimize the rims for one tire at one dimension. Hed have test of 23, 25 and 28mm on their website but only with the GP4000S. Aerocoach has the 23mm Vittoria Corsa speed and Enve uses the 25mm GP4000S (I think).

Now I ride the GP5000 clincher, but will probably change to the new Vittoria 2.0 Graphene TL when they come in stock. So what wheel will be fastest with me on my QR Prsix with those tires? Field testing is probably the only way to go, but also very difficualt to do in practice since I have to actually get the different wheels.

3 x Norseman winner - http://www.triallan.com
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:

To give an example of how complicated this is, I do Chung tests nearly every Saturday and Sunday a.m. when I don't have a race. I've tested the Hed Jet+9 and the Enve front against each other half a dozen times now. The Hed has been faster every time, except the last time, when I tried a different tire on the Enve (sorry, my secret and don't try to PM me for the answer). Go figure. Of course my tests are all at zero yaw, so results could differ......

Was it generally a big difference?

jens wrote:
BTW, the Roval tested real slow in field tests.

Strange. How slow?

3 x Norseman winner - http://www.triallan.com
Ambassador of:
Quintana Roo - https://quintanarootri.com
Morf-Tech - http://www.morf-tech.com
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff Matt, makes a lot of sense.

Also to have something in mind is in real life the fastest is not always the best option. Let’s just say a deeper 70mm wheel is marginally faster than a 60mm but the 70 is going to be harder to handle in cross wind and feel harsher in bumpy roads.

The tire selection is another variable, for example I’ve seen the corsa speed one is the fastest in rolling resistance but it seems it’s not the best in puncture resistance or grip in the corners. So in this case the fastest for a time trial race might not be the best for a long distance triathlon.

For all the possible variables is crucial to have more data from the manufacturers about the rims, tires, wind tunnel, etc. so we can make the mix for each scenario depending each athlete.
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Allanhov] [ In reply to ]
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Allanhov wrote:
Was it generally a big difference?

No, but the consistency was striking. Once I got the test protocol down, the Hed won every single time. I haven't seen that consistency between the Jet+9 and the H3+ -- at least not yet.


Allanhov wrote:
jens wrote:
BTW, the Roval tested real slow in field tests.

Strange. How slow?


Slow enough that I didn't bother testing it anymore. More than 2 watts in every trial. FWIW, I do use the slightly unusual Oval Concepts A900 fork, which was designed for the wheels of 15 years ago. So maybe that combined with the the fact that the Roval has a super wide rim has something to do with it. As an aside, some of these rims are so wide that you have to adjust the brakes out to the point that they protrude beyond the fork.
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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guillermoD wrote:


I'll let you in on a little secret that could help you make a decision if you are stuck between choices and are trying to get as fast as possible
Hed Disc $1150 usd
Aerocoach Disc ~$1300 usd
Roval Disc $2500 usd
Zipp Disc $2700 usd
Enve Disc $2700 usd

Buy the Hed or Aerocoach and then use some of the $1200 you save and go to a wind tunnel.


Or even: WheelBuilder disc cover: $100.
Last edited by: JoeO: May 12, 19 12:54
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Allanhov] [ In reply to ]
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Our recommendation for this next generation of AEOX wheels is for Corsa Speeds if you want out and out speed / time trial PB etc., but Conti GP 5000 TL for most triathlon situations. Certainly you can train on GP 5000s all day without problem, and both can be set up tubeless.

We were speccing Schwalbe Pro Ones with our wheels for a while last year, but we found that the batches were really inconsistent - sometimes they were so tight you couldn't get them over the rims, and the grip wasn't as good as the GP 5000 TLs when they arrived, so it's a no brainer really. I'm quite a fan of the Conti GP TT tyres, but of course you can't run them tubeless. Nice with latex tubes on non tubeless compatible rims though.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [guillermoD] [ In reply to ]
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It's difficult to explore all the options for customers and you'll always have gaps - I understand it can be frustrating trying to make decisions so we do try and get as much data as we can to be helpful for riders.

As an aside we generally do all of our wheel testing in Cervelo frames as they tend to be quite consistent and representative of performance in other frames. Seeing wheel differences in different bikes is a thing but you're not going to see huge 10w swings from bike to bike with different wheels. We have Cervelos (and other frames) in our CFD optimisation protocol so that we can transfer the results across to the tunnel, track and out on the road - but we doing aero testing every single week all year round (and have done for years) and there hasn't been a bike that's thrown up anything really weird where some wheels come out far better/worse than others.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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If the HED H3 plus tri spoke tests fast, why don’t more people run It?
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Pwraddr] [ In reply to ]
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Well per aerocoach's test, it tests similar to the HED Jet 6 and is slower than the HED Jet 9 (as well as aerocoach's two offerings). A number of top cyclists will use tri-spokes in TT's still. I think it's fallen out of favor with triathletes as even with the H3 plus you need to run fairly narrow tires for it to shine, and now a days people are wanting to run wider and wider tires for comfort reasons. Also, not sure how the HED 3 plus handles compared to a Jet 6 (or similar). I've heard people say they can sometimes be challenging in a cross wind, but I've never ridden them myself so I can't comment on that

Matt
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Looking forward to the new aerocoach wheels. Out of interest have you ever test a two spoke? I can kind of understand how they could potentially be aero given the rotational drag, though imagine they have other engineering issues.
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [boing] [ In reply to ]
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boing wrote:
Looking forward to the new aerocoach wheels. Out of interest have you ever test a two spoke? I can kind of understand how they could potentially be aero given the rotational drag, though imagine they have other engineering issues.

We've not empirically tested them, no. I have spoken to someone who has however, they said that they weren't bad but not anything spectacular.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Cool thank, as a concept I can see how it might work, but of course execution is everything :)
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
Rovals are good, that's for sure. Our disc brake fronts will be out with all the info in June.

I also heard a lot of good things about the roval but then I found the BIKE RADAR review and they basically say that the Rovals CLX 64 (Rim) are a complete disaster.
What has happend there?

https://www.youtube.com/...BH3wXzhrI&t=656s
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Allanhov] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [rbm] [ In reply to ]
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Dang, they burn FLO badly in that article

Edit: Also of note: 454 is much slower than a 404, a 60mm Bontrager is faster than the deeper 808 and 7.8, and SwissSide beats the 7.8 by a significant 5 watts.
Last edited by: BigBoyND: May 16, 19 14:59
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Re: Fastest front wheel available? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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[quote Pun_Times I think it's fallen out of favor with triathletes as even with the H3 plus you need to run fairly narrow tires for it to shine,[/quote]
Based on what do you draw this conclusion??
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