I was going to jump on 28:XX thing at Cornell as well, I'm don't remember what the school record is, but I know Brian Clas never ran sub 29:00, and that 29:5X by my teamate Dan Danbrowski was still in the top 10 all time.

Class of 02

Talent, determination, smarts, courage. That combination can make any coach look good.

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Lew

You'd be real ugly if you were my coach then. :-)

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In 1984 in my first ever pro race, the Penrod's Triathlon in Ft. Lauderdale, I ran the 10km split in 31:02. This race was similar in set up to today's ITU races (minus the draft legal part). The bike consisted of 4 laps up and down the coast highway, and the run was several laps inside of the bike course. There were also some elite relay teams and Greg Meyers and Thom Hunt battled it out for the relay team win on the run, both running low 29's for th 10km on what was supposed to be a certified course. I think Monty might have done the swim leg for one of the relay teams? I know John Howard was also on one of the relay teams. I think I was about 15th overall, came out of the water 10 minutes behind Scott Molina (I had just learned to swim that summer) and finished the race ten minutes behind him. Three months later I ran a 29:52 for an open 10km on the roads.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I have no first-hand info - but I do remember that item from his bio. I've asked slowman if he knows where Harald is now - and if he does, we'll just ask him directly. Is it possible he ran the time in a road race while in college - or grad school? If it wasn't done in a school meet - or if it was done after he used up his collegiate eligibility, it wouldn't be reflected in the school records.

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Lew

[reply]I was going to jump on 28:XX thing at Cornell as well, I'm don't remember what the school record is, but I know Brian Clas never ran sub 29:00, and that 29:5X by my teamate Dan Danbrowski was still in the top 10 all time.

Class of 02[/reply]

I'm still in the top 10 in the high jump outdoors (from 1979, when I was 3rd all-time), last I checked. Could have been bumped out this year, though.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

In reply to this entire thread:

there are three kinds of measurement - metric, imperial, and triathlon.

there is no way that anyone breaks 30 min for a real 10k off the bike. Courses are short, as simple as that.

I say this as a ex runner who placed 5th in the Oly trials in my country, and someone who has broken 2:20 for a marathon.

If people could do this, then they could run ~ 28 mins for 10k. Wow. That's a lot of Olympic 10k finalists floating around in another sport. I know Craig Mottram very well (bronze in the 5k in Helsinki) and know what kind of a runner he is. There is no way that any triathlete could run at that level unless they gave up triathlon and were very very gifted and very very lucky.

So sub 30? No way. I reckon 32 mins on an accurate course would be about right.

Possibly 28:XX is the a 6 mile time? I know there have been a few of those.

Also, in agreement with the poster below - there is no way that many of the sub 30:00 10K splits are legit (maybe there have been a couple). As a former 31mid 10K runner turned triathlete, I slowed down approx. 1:30 (to 33:00) in stand alone 10Ks after switching my training. My splits in tris have ranged from 15:51 5K to 41:XX 10k within weeks of each other, so my faith in the accuracy of courses is low. I just don't believe that there are guys with sub 28:00 potential doing tris, much less a whole bunch of them. Sub 28:00 is just so ridiculously fast (there are probaly less than 50 people in the world at any given time capable of it) that someone could run 29 low on a legit course at the end of a tri seems far fetched at best.

In another life when I was a runner it was like triathlon - a long accumulation of strength over a number of years. I did the standard 100 miles a week, with the standard periodisation plan for the year (base, strength, race speed). I peaked at 220k once, but the trick was the whole week after week. Obviously, I was just a runner then.

The key was staying uninjured doing the volume. When I was at my best I managed 18 months without an injury.

Funnily enough, I have done tri's for about four years. I am yet to really nail the run in a race (1:17 for a half, 2:53 for an IM - I haven't done a short race yet).

Even more funny, I am now injured, with my first injury since I started triathlon.

I don't believe any of the low 29's either. If you will check my original post, I was proposing that the 2004 ITU worlds run course was pretty accurate. Don't know that for a fact, but I charted the splits of 20 elite women who did the race and compared them to the splits run by the same women on courses known to be accurate. The result? The accumulated difference was less than 1 second/athlete.

Based on that analysis (which admittedly could be flawed, if only because of sample size), the run splits of Bevan Docherty (29:54) and Ivan Rana (29:56) were pretty impressive.

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Lew

"If people could do this, then they could run ~ 28 mins for 10k. Wow. That's a lot of Olympic 10k finalists floating around in another sport. I know Craig Mottram very well (bronze in the 5k in Helsinki) and know what kind of a runner he is. There is no way that any triathlete could run at that level unless they gave up triathlon and were very very gifted and very very lucky."

I don't think that is necessarily true that a triathlete capable of running a 30 minutes triathlon 10k would be able to run 28 minutes in an open 10 k. I know of an Olympian triathlete whose triathlon running splits improved after he made each single run workout a brick (in other words, every time he ran, he made sure it was of the bike). In that case, the running speed in a triathlon leg does not necessarily translate into a faster open 10 k.

Tim Don has run 8.06 3000m. Docherty and Kris gemmel have run 14.3x 5000m. Apparently Lessing has run 28.5x for 10000m. The top few runners in the sport can no doubt go low 29s for 10k on the track/certifed 10k race. Why wouldn't they be able to run 30 flat off the bike? After all they train so their triathlon run times are as close as possible to their stand alone times. Those top guys are very talented/hard working and low 29min 10k ability is not out of the question for them. As a former high level runner I thought you'd understand that 29min ability and low 28min ability is worlds apart... kinda like 35min 10k compared to 39min.

I am not, in any way, questioning the ability of any of the high level 10k off the bike athletes. At all, in any way.

I just think, and I have no science to back me up on this one, that it just can't be done. I base this on experience, and my understanding of running. I may be wrong in some people's view, but that's ok. it's just a debate after all.

Craig Mottram has broken 13 mins for 5k a number of times. He did an Oly tri last year (Noosa) and ran 32:xx. Now I suppose you could say that he doesn't train for tri's at all, which is more or less true, but I defy you to find more than a half dozen faster 5/10k runners in the world. That's what he ran that day. He had the fastest run split of the day (beating Craig Alexander - who can leg it ok) so that's all I can offer as evidence.

I am probably still a runner at heart. I just think it can't be done if the course is accurate. As I said, I think there are three kinds of measurement - metric, imperial, and triathlon.

That's not to say that the fastest runners in triathlon aren't great runners, but it's another sport.

I don't think anyone doubts that top tri guys can run sub 30 stand alone on a track, but low 29 at the end of a tri is more like 28:00 stand alone on a track. As you said 28:00 and 29:30 are worlds apart.

Results don't lie. Are there any printred results of a triathlete running a sub 29 min 10k on a certified course, while in the middle of their triathlon season?

Paul Amey has the ability to run sub 29 min for a 10k, but not in the middle of training for triathlon.

I remember in college, there were always the runners that had these great times run over the summer, or some unknown race. The best thing about computer technology and the world wide web, it is much harder to lie about your performances.

I never said they could run low 29 in a tri or that low 29 in a tri was equal to 28.00. There have been recorded results of sub 30min runs in a tri (worlds 2004). Why is it so hard to believe that these guys who, without doubt some can run low 29s whilst in top tri shape, couldn't run 30sec or so slower then their stand alone 10k PBs? Especially off of a easier than normal bike. I think the majority of those who say it can't be done are thinking about this relative to themselves and how they struggle in a tri run compared to a fresh run. Though we need to remember the top tri guys are the best for many reasons some of those reasons are they are more effiecent than the average and can run very close to their potential in a tri run.

Yes, I was on the team that beat John Howard and Tom Hunt, but I was the cyclist. It was a winner take all race, $5000 to 1st, cameras for second. I called Greg Meyer and Charlie Graves and made the pitch to them, and we went for it. On the other team it was Dale Bascescue, John Howard, and the world record hloder in 10k, Tom Hunt. I was a bit nervous because Greg was a marathoner, but he looked me straight in the eye and said, "You get me an even start with Tom, and I will beat him". Every leg came down to the wire, and bu the end of the bike, John and I had attacked so many times for a few second gap, we were trashed. Probably rode the fastest 40k of my life that day, low 50 minutes or so. We sprinted across the line together and the race was on. They ran stride fo stride, very similar to the Ironwar of Scott and Allen, then with a mile to go, Greg smiled at me and put the hammer down. Unbelievable head to head race, I;ll never forget it...

As for tri runs, virtually every course is off one way or the other. Race directors are just not concerned with exact distances, and no governing body makes them be. There is no way to compare times of todays athletes, or with the great running triathletes of the past. I will say that in a "non drafting" triathlon, that Mark Allen, and Greg Welch, were the two fastest, and toughest I've witnessed, including todays athletes......They always found a way to win, even against many who were faster pure runners....

[That's not unheard of for a triathlete, by the way - if I remember correctly, Harald Robinson (4th at the 1991 worlds) ran 28:xx while on the track team at Cornell.]

I found Harold Robinson (running a venture capital firm in San Mateo, CA). His answer to my query?

" . . . My policy is never to deny a really, really, really good rumor.

"Sadly, this one is so good I feel compelled to set the record
straight.... you are out of your freakin' mind (Lew: I had proposed that possibility in my e-mail message to him). I would be surprised if
any of the triathletes I knew (including myself) were below about
29:30. I actually do not have an official 10k track time as I ran the
mile, 3k and 5k in college."

So, mea culpa. Either my memory is faulty - or I remembered fine, but the information was faulty in the first place. Nonetheless, I still think the 29:54 for Bevan Docherty at 2004 Worlds is legit.

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Lew

Tell him to quit wasting his time behind a desk and come back to racing. We need to sick Robinson, Riccitello, and Pigg on each other again to satisfy our blood lust.

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I raced in the elite race at London a couple of weeks back - course was between 500 and 1000m short.

Check out the splits for the ETU cup in Zundert in June - I think Will Clarke went close to 30 mins - it's a pretty accurate course.

Also, the Echternach ETU race is on a certified IAAF 10km course, have a look at the top guys' times there.

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"Language most shows a man: Speak, that I may see thee. It springs out of the most retired and inmost parts of us, and is the image of the parents of it, the mind. No glass so mirrors a man's form or likeness so true as his speech." - Ben Jonson, Timber, or Discoveries made upon Men and Matter.

This thread brings to mind two words: (sp?) Jann Million.

Of course, these were duathlons, but sweet lord of all considered holy could that cat move.

I agrree, Jan Million was one fast mother! But as an example, he ran 15:17 for his final 5k at the 1999 world champs in NC. I ran 15:27 on the same course 1 month earlier.

One thing I have not taken into consideration in running sub 30 off the bike, is the difference between triathlon and duathlon. I am guessing it is considerably harder coming off a run-bike than a swim-bike.

I do know that it has taken me much longer to recover from a duathlon than the few tri's that I have done.

Anyone agree or disagree?

You know I'm biased similarly, but I would think a run-bike precursor is going to be much more devastating to the final run than a swim-bike.

Back to Million, I think he could hold that same pace for a finishing 10k. If I get some time tonight I'll dig into some results. I'm thinking that he had a low 28 and change PR on the track.

i think bevan docherty has raced track nationals here in nz..i can find out what his times are if you want ;)