....not sure it would be any benefit to triathletes?

Rebeca Mann went full time with a program this year. Maybe a good case study.

Not sure I understand your comment about focus on form. It is more about focus on power.

I have started to use it. It is very beneficial, albeit a bit boring. It is not the best for open water success but guess what, most triathletes are shitty swimmers in the pool as well as in the open water and any pool conditioning will make them better in OW.

I use 3 different race paces for USRPT training. 100 fly for swim specifik strenght and vo2max, 400 free for vo2max, 1500 free for threshold. My sets are like 20-24x25 fly (I never go to 3 fails since I do this as a pre-set before a distance set) on 40, being really focus with coming in on the right time. When you start to slip and almost fail target time, push harder, get tired, 30-40x50 free on 55 (same here, really hold the time. For me its 38 seconds. Right on, every rep) and for distance free its 25-45x100 on 1:40, coming in on 1:26.

It is a really interesting concept based on the original work by Åstrand et al (about very short work-rest interval work can be very beneficial). I have no doubt in my mind that it works exeptionally well for pool swimming where learning to pace and technique at very high speeds is vital. For us competing over longer distances it has more of a point to use it as a powerful training tool, like running hills for a track runner. That is why I use the 100 fly for example: it is hard as hell. Really works the power of the pull, works the core a lot etc. I probably haev no chance even against 12 year olds in a regional meet at the 100 fly because they are simply exceptional flyers but for training effect it is VERY good. I personally find the 20-30x25 fly one of the best sets when it comes to training effect. Both the 400&1500-free sets are very long as well as a bit mindnumbing. They are still awesome and I think doing 1 USRPT set per session, rotating between the 3 over a week is a great idea. Like this:

1) ~400 ez warmup, 28x25 fly @p100 (fail at 14, 17 then abandon set) - ~2000 ez distance free like 4x400+4x100
2) ~400 ez warmup, 40x50 free @p400 (fail at 27, 34) then some stroke work for ~1000 extra like 6x100 ez+50 stroke
3) ~200 warmup, 40x100 free @p1500 (no fail! Lower target time by 1s, or if rest >15s, lower rest), 200 ez cooldown

USRPT might be confusing at first. These are the VERY BASIC guidelines. Dr. Rushall has a few papers that I'll link at the bottom which are great to read for a deeper understanding.

1. For every race you have an unique race pace. If you 100 fly time is 1:10, your race pace per 25 is ~17 sec. It is vital for performance to work a lot at this pace and over time, improve the time.
2. You work every distance in very short repeats to make absolutely sure that you hit your targeted times. This teaches technique at race pace, pace awareness, body & mind awereness in racelike situations and makes it possible to get in a very large volume of work. 3-7 times the race distance is recommended! For training distances it is a good practice to divide the race distance by at least 10 (12 or 25 for 100, 25 or 50 for 200, 50 for 400, 75-100 for 800/1500).
3. When you fail to hit your target time this counts as a fail. The set continues until you have failed 3 times, or 2 times in a row. This means that training is never too hard, nor too easy. This is probably why I really like USRPT: Each set you do, if executed as intended, will lead to improvements. The same principle can be found in Training and Racing with a Power Meter by H. Allen and A. Coggan (intervals to fatigue is what they call it I think).

Understanding an USRPT set
Adapting to USRPT training
Step by step Planning and decision making

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Interesting, thank you! Would some variation of this be practical for IM training? My goal is sub 1h. I can swim a 1500 at 58 min pace comfortably (1:22 / 100yd) and recently swam a 1.2 mi in 27 min flat in a race. I did this on 10k yards/week in 3 sessions. 3 x 2.4 mi for a USPRT would make for a very challenging set I would think. I could probably attempt a 30x100 and see how I perform then work my way up in distance to maybe 50.... I don't know

I dont think you should design your USRPT set for the OW-distance. That would be like doing vo2max type repeats on the trainer at your ironman pace and just going on and on forever. It just doesnt make sence.

IMO you should use USRPT to do very targeted work in different systems that will make you a better swimmer. As I mentioned I use 100 fly, 400 and 1500 free to cover swim strenght, vo2max and threshold. On the bike it would be equal to 60s repeats, 4 min repeats and 20 min repeats. It is simply very targeted training for different systems that will all help you become a faster, stronger and more competent OW swimmer. I have been thinking of doing "USRPT" in as OW-training but then it is no longer USRPT. I dont think it is possible or wise to do 300m repeats at Ironman pace until 3 fail occur since I think I would have to do more than 9000 meters and I'm not that up for 30x300 to failure. I think the smartest use of USRPT for OW swimmers/triathletes is to think of it as solid and powerful non-specifik training (well, 1500 pace is specific). Sort of like short intervals (1-5 mins) isnt specific for IM training and maybe not a great idea when getting closer to competition it is a great idea far out from competition to build every area of your fitness.

Remember that in USRPT, success is failure and failure is success. You will want to push a set until failure, otherwise you 1) swim too slow or 2) rest to much or 3) should do more reps. This works very well and is smart for shorter distances races but open water distances it simply isnt.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

I think this is great insight. Become a better swimmer and you will be a faster swimmer at any distance.

I'm a college swim coach, and a semi-pro triathlete. I was a 9:57 1000 freestyler in HS, and a 9:40 3200m runner, so solid, if not spectacular, background in both swim and run. I've been coaching with USRPT for a season,- mostly mid-distance and distance freestylers, and some butterfliers- and training with it for the past 6 months. I went to the USRPT Clinic in Branford, ON, and listened to Brent Rushall speak, which was fascinating, and I believe that it truly is the future of pool swimming. Whether it is working for triathlon remains to be seen, but I

the first thing to understand is that USPRT is a stroke technique exercise, not training a specific body system- strength, VO2, threshold. these are simply byproducts of the training, not the goals. the goal, according to Brent Rushall, is teaching the body the skill to swim at a certain speed for longer and longer periods, as swimming AT SPEED- not swimming itself- is a skillset that needs honing without having to unlearn slow swimming.

I swim 6x/week, from 2500-3500y.

Warmup is very short- 5min jump rope, until I start sweating, and then a 200y at 85%, which is usually about 2:00. Then, in the beginning, when I am most neurologically rested, I sprint. we have a 15y wide pool at SUNY Cortland, and options to go 25y or 50m. some sprint sets:
20 x 15 on :25, sighting 1x/width
12 x 25 walk back, no goggles, sighting every stroke
10 x 30 (2 widths) dive from the side, fast flip, no breath.

All of these sets are done ALL OUT, with a careful eye on the clock, and with specific attention to stroke counts. If any repeat isnt perfect, I take a repeat off and gather myself. only perfect efforts provide maximum benefit.

Then, after sprinting, I launch into race pace training. in a professional olympic distance tri, there are two subsets of this- the first 300-400m, and the final 1200m. I treat these as two different sets of race pace. some race pace sets for the first 400m, which usually involves several interuptions (waves, turn buoys, directional changes, etc) and little sighting-
30 x 50y on :45, holding 27-28, flip turns and no sighting, 3-5x dolphin kick per wall
50 x 25 on :25, holding 13.x, 5x dolphin kick, 1x sight per length.
20 x 75 on 1:10, holding 41-42, no sighting, flip turns

and some for the next 1200 m, which is slower and often features patterned sighting is this-
20 x 150 on 1:45- holding 1:35s open turns, no dolphin kicks, 2x sights per lap
30 x 100 on 1:25- holding 1:03s open turns, no dolphin kicks, 2x sights per lap
40 x 50 on :55- sighting every stroke, trying to hold

after this, I do underwaters. This is because often, at the end of races, dolphin diving or wave riding can seriously fatigue a swimmer, and hard underwaters seem to help counteract this.

If I miss my goal time on any repeat, I take a repeat off. Swimming slowly is the enemy, and teaches bad habits and bad form. The set finishes once I miss a goal time, take a repeat off, and then miss AGAIN. I don't really count strokes, but can usually get an eye on the clock for splits, which should be even. If I start getting desperate, and going out too fast, then dying like a pig, I know its time to take a repeat off.

Thanks Tom, I have lots of questions. Before I ask, though, I want to point out how fortunate ST is that you replied to this thread.

I coach a team of mostly triathletes. I've been running about 2 USRPT sets a week in training for a while now. I'm having great results. Two of the pros that I work with that have had the best results so far have gone from 1:06 to a 53 this past weekend and another from 49-50 to as fast as 46 and feeling like it was a less taxing effort. It certainly is applicable to training for an IM distance. But I tend to look at training for an IM distance swim as building up a very efficient "kinetic chain" first and a very distant second is training of metabolic systems.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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This is useful stuff. I hadn't actually heard of USRPT before, but I've been sort of gravitating towards what I think it describes. I'll do some more reading up on the philosophy and methods later tonight, but in my case I simply find it more enjoyable to try and swim as close to race pace as I can.

Thanks for chiming in.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

MAN...
"What the hell are you doing?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87w655s3xKc

I've swam farther and I've swam faster, but I did a modified USRPT workout and it gassed me.

Thanks for all the input. I agree with this as part of the toolkit. I'm a pretty good swimmer for a triathlete (insert joke here), but I'm excited about this as an efficient way to use my pool time(triathletes don't swim enough and when they do there is a lot of *icking around). The workout got pretty tough, pretty quick, but still manageable with some good suffering (which I don't get enough of in the pool).

Here is the workout (let me know what I did right and what I did wrong)
600 w/u (I knew after the set I'd be in no mood for more yards)
23x50 on the 1:00 (goal <:38 / :39=failure) (probably a little to much rest, but I'm horrible at clock math in the pool)
#1 :36 / #2 :35 / #3-9 :36 / #10 :40 Fail / #11-17 :36 / #18 :37 / #19 :39 Fail / #20 :36 / #21 :37 / #22 :38 / #23 :39 Fail ...and I was toast
400 w/d
I don't come from a swim background, so the pacing is an issue and I'm sure there is a lot more variance in my push off and turns than a fish.

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Who Dares...Wins!

With all due respect, I have to say that trying to swim race pace 5-6 days/wk sounds like a recipe for burnout over time. Do you think you can swim that way 50 wks/yr over the next 10 yrs??? Surely you must plan for either some complete breaks, and/or some periods of less intense swimming. Speaking strictly for myself, I like to swim around 360-365 days per year, every year. Swimming fast is more fun than swimming slowly but swimming period is more fun than not swimming at all. Swimming race pace twice a week seems plenty to me. Obviously I am an extreme outlier in my affinity for the water:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

never heard of it. Can you post some sample workouts?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

race pace sets done without proper recovery wouldn't be a recipe for burnout, they would be a death sentence. however, as these repeats are done with adequate recovery, and, when my body cannot complete a set, I don't do it, mean that physical burnout is less likely- though not impossible. Psychological burnout is likely, as repeat distances are all the same, and as there are MANY repeats.

I don't swim easy, because I don't want to be good at swimming easy. as I said, 'Swimming fast' and 'swimming easy' are (according to rushall) two totally different skills- and I only intend to hone the former.

what you describe as a recipe for burnout is an excellent metaphor. however, recipes list both ingredients and directions. ingredients, if used in the wrong amount or the wrong order, can be disastrous. with this, I feel like i'm using the most important ingredients in the perfect amounts, dictated by my taste daily. I could be doing it wrong, but hey, it feels OK, i'm not as fatigued as I usually am after swimming, and I get my swims done way faster than before.

Well, I see what you're saying. I guess time will tell. Perhaps we can revisit this thread in 3 or 4 years, if we are both even still on here. Sometimes I feel ST is a waste of time but OTOH every so often we have some good discussions such as this one. I'm biased in this USRPT stuff because I've always been the type of swimmer who takes 2000 just to feel warmed up, plus I've always done my best swims on moderate intensity, long distance training, with just a touch of really fast swimming thrown in. I just always seem to burn out in a few weeks when I swim with a group that does lots of really fast swimming, even if it is with plenty of rest:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

What you say here Eric is very important. USRPT is good, its very good, but as Bob Bowman said about it: "It is no doubt very good. But you know, it is sort of like spinach. Nobody would argue that it isnt good for you but that doesnt mean that it is the only thing you should eat". What we can also read in here is that some people just cant take spinach.

Rushall also said that die-hard sprinters cant do normal USRPT and expect good results. USRPT is very taxing for the aerobic system and people who thrive on their anaerobic capacity will not do good on USRPT.

Tom, is very cool to see someone who has actually met Rushall and attended a clinic post some thoughts about the system. I also believe that it is something we will see more of and I will certainly program some USRPT sets for tri club (even though we swim long course). I do however think that it is semantics to call it "training to swim fast rather than metabolic training". 600 meters of fly swimming at 100 race pace will tax you! A lot! It doesnt matter if you consider metabolic training #2, second to the learning, it will still be there and a huge part of why the training is so good.

And being frank 30-40x100 at a high pace with short rest has always been a staple for distance swimmers for I dont know how long. I know my stepdad did plenty of that (well elite swimmers at the 1970s did plenty of everything).

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Love the spinach analogy, had not heard that one before:) A couple of other things I forgot to say in my previous post: The primary example of USRPT training is a 14, or maybe 15 now, yr old boy. He hasn't gone through any burn-out phases yet, which so, so many swimmers do. To keep swimming over 15 or 20 years, you have to mix it up hugely, e.g. swim/kick/pull all 4 strokes in every combination and configuration, sometimes with fins and/or paddles. You have keep swimming fresh. And sometimes you just have to swim easy for awhile, not trying to go hard but rather just enjoying the feeling of your body flowing smoothly through the water. Sure, you could just take three months off but I would think swimming easy for three months would be better than not swimming at all. This brings me to my second point, which is that I would disagree strenuously with the idea that swimming slowly and swimming fast are two entirely diff skills. This simply can not be literally true or else swim instruction modules would have two diff paths, one for slow and one for fast, but they do not but rather one simply learns to swim period. All I do when I swim faster is pull harder and increase my stroke rate; it is exactly the same stroke but just a faster turnover rate. Of course, this is much easier said, or typed, than done:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

My main question comes down to pacing. How did you determine 1:03s? I have no idea what I want to use:

The fastest I believe I can swim 1500M is 17:45 (1:11 100M). This would be if I cut down on running and cycling for a fwe weeks.
In the middle of training, I think I can swim 1500M in 18:30 (1:14 100M)
In the middle of training, wearing a speedo endurance jammer (what I train in) but in swimmeet conditions I think I can swim 1500M in 18:45
On a typical midweek swim, if I did a 1500M time trial in just under 19:00 (1:15 100M)

So what do I use as my baseline 100 pace?

On the sprint side: I can do 25's on :28 in SCM and hold :15 for 20-40 repeats. This is fairly equivalent to what you do. But it is pretty clear that you are faster than me. More specifically, my aerobic thresh hold pace is a lower percentage of my anaerobic threshold pace. Does this matter? How would you account for that in the triathlon setting?

I think doing the warm up: 5 min of rope work and then a 200 is probably better that a traditional swim warm up if you are a triathlete because at a race you don't really get to do a traditional swim warm up. But I have the same issue as Eric, it takes me a 1200-15000 to get warmed up. How long did it take you to adapt to that kind of warm up?