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FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed
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Hi all,
I do some TrainerRoad group workouts and follow the TR plan for cycling. A fellow triathlete tells me about various individuals who join us on the ride(s) whose FTP is just "amazing" (higher than mine). I occasionally ride with these folks outdoors and am shocked that they are not as fast as I would think they should be (based on their amazing FTP).

What gives? How is it possible to be so fast and or have such a high FTP indoors and then suck outdoors? Is there a way to 'cheat the FTP' on TR? What am I missing here?

Now, there are alot of variables to speed outdoors...ie. gravity, bike fit, etc....

Just wondering...

KK
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of potential possibilities...

- They manually entered their FTP into trainerroad or wherever (ie they made it up and didn't achieve it in a test
- They might be better at performing an FTP test (either ramp or 20 min or whatever) than they are at riding in certain zones that are being ridden in your outside group rides
- The power source they use indoors measures high (either poorly calibrated or just a trainer that is 'off')
- They might weigh a lot more than you so their watts/kg is not as good
- They are holding back during the group rides
- As you mentioned - fit can play a role. Having higher handlebars can make it easier to push bigger watts. But that comes at a cost of having worse aerodynamics
- They might have equipment that isn't very aerodynamic

Matt
Last edited by: Chemist: Nov 22, 22 16:50
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone online can do 300+ for an hour. In aero. Everyone knows that! Eye roll.

Bad cals, trainers read high, etc…..

Also yeah, weight. Online platforms inflate speed on the flats IMO to make folks happy. Compare a podium photo for an AG tri or amateur bike race to how folks online are. You don’t see a ton of 100kg podium pics.

You can’t get the blob aero over the bars when larger despite the Sasquatch power.

I rode tonight in Zwift for a long while at 235w road bike. Avg speed of like 24.5mph. Bullshit.

Remember…..results matter.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Slow down there cowboy - youll soon be making claims of riding 30,000 miles a year
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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 A lot of powermeters are not EDIT- ACCURATE. Which means that although they work well compared to themselves (repeated measurements), they would be off compared to a 'gold standard'.

I have local friends who I don't get to train with due to scheduling but we follow each other on Strava for years. 2 of them got new Garmin pedal powermeters. These PMs have gotten a lot better from their initial iteration, but I suspect there are still some varying accuracy issues - one guy who has always be slower than me and now averages a full 3 mph less power hour, somehow has an FTP near 300 with his new powermeter, which is a good 60 points above around where mine is (with Assiomas). I can't help but seriously doubt that he has such an FTP in reality ; he only rides 2x/wk and isn't even a racing triathlete!
Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 23, 22 7:27
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
..........and isn't even a racing triathlete!
LOL!
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on the FTP test, some do it in ERG mode (which is a no no) others do the test incorrectly and get a flawed result i.e going steady for 10mins, ramping it up for 5 and then hammering it the last 5. Also weight plays a large part - a friend of mine has an FTP about 100w lower than mine, but she's a lot lighter. I think are w/kg are roughly the same and that shows in training and races.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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Kat_Kong wrote:
...individuals who join us on the ride(s) whose FTP is just "amazing" (higher than mine). I occasionally ride with these folks outdoors and am shocked that they are not as fast as I would think they should be (based on their amazing FTP).

There are a million reasons speed doesn't match expectation based on their FTP. One way to cut the number of possibilities in half is looking at their strava.

Either (1) FTP isn't translating to outside-Watts or (2) outside-Watts aren't translating to speed

Did they average higher power on the same ride?
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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My elite direto is more or less spot on in comparison to my assiomas. I originally thought the turbo was reading high, but the pedals confirmed it wasn't!

I used to do all my strictly power related sessions on the turbo (especially those with the higher wattages). Have recently found out that I can do most of these sessions outside though and the only ones that are difficult are the high wattage, low cadence as I live in a pancake flat area and often spin out.

I was surprised how easily the watts transfer outside when you just get out and ride outside.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
A lot of powermeters are not precise. Which means that although they work well compared to themselves (repeated measurements), they would be off compared to a 'gold standard'.

I think you mean accurate. Not precise.

blog
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
lightheir wrote:
A lot of powermeters are not precise. Which means that although they work well compared to themselves (repeated measurements), they would be off compared to a 'gold standard'.


I think you mean accurate. Not precise.

Woops yes, had it backwards!
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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Aerodynamics matter a lot. Knowing how to conserve energy in a paceline or pack matters a lot. Pacing matters a lot.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Also, in Zwift, I rarely have to contend with weather, potholes, bad drivers, dogs, deer, and the occasional Mississippi Kite. It’s just easier to go harder in a virtual world.

"The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care.”
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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In racing the only metric that matters in the end is finishing time.

Yeah a high FTP can help but aerodynamics play a huge part. How you can handle and interact with the bike. Rolling resistance. Tactics and drafting if you are bike racing. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone has a higher FTP than me who finishes behind me in the race. I beat them.
Last edited by: piratetri: Nov 23, 22 6:03
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]
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They may not be treating the group ride as a race and just keeping it easy/endurance.

However, I train indoors for all but a couple outdoor rides and I feel cooked after outdoors. I believe it’s because indoor I’m always on erg mode and keep my cadence up 85+. I don’t do any “big gear” low cadence work on my wheel on trainer cause it’s not smooth. So I’m more fit indoors but doesn’t transfer as well for climbing outdoors.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
Depends on the FTP test, some do it in ERG mode (which is a no no) others do the test incorrectly and get a flawed result i.e going steady for 10mins, ramping it up for 5 and then hammering it the last 5. Also weight plays a large part - a friend of mine has an FTP about 100w lower than mine, but she's a lot lighter. I think are w/kg are roughly the same and that shows in training and races.

I agree ERG mode may have something to do with it. the resistance in erg feels less and I spin more like a slight down hill feeling. To be realistic I free ride zwift and use my watch to lap intervals.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Aerodynamics matter a lot. Knowing how to conserve energy in a paceline or pack matters a lot. Pacing matters a lot.

This could be a big factor. A lot of newer riders tend to be pretty surge-y in groups. I would always coach kids to look a few riders ahead instead of the wheel in front of them, easier to keep it steady and be a step ahead of those around you.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Rob G] [ In reply to ]
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Rob G wrote:
They may not be treating the group ride as a race and just keeping it easy/endurance.

However, I train indoors for all but a couple outdoor rides and I feel cooked after outdoors. I believe it’s because indoor I’m always on erg mode and keep my cadence up 85+. I don’t do any “big gear” low cadence work on my wheel on trainer cause it’s not smooth. So I’m more fit indoors but doesn’t transfer as well for climbing outdoors.

This happened to me a few years back when I too also targeted 85+, and averaged 85-90 rpm intentionally on the trainer. Once I was outdoors, hills felt really hard, even though I was doing high-watt intervals indoors regularly.

I've since switched back to my natural (very) low-cadence and even added more super low cadence work like coach Matt DIxon from Purplepatch is always recommending, and it's worked quite well. Outdoors hills are no problem at all (even if they're still challenging) because the legs are used to pushing heavy resistance on a regular basis. I regularly do the Alpe du Zwift at rpm 50 or even lower for about an hour of such grinding, and after that, outdoor climbing is no problem even if it's still a hard effort you're putting out overall.
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [Rob G] [ In reply to ]
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I'd recommend shifting? Or getting easier gears. People love to idolize the 11-23 or 11-25 casettes, but if you shift often you can keep a reasonably high cadence on most terrain with an 11-32. Very few people benefit from harder gears, most are better off with easier gears and a little more training at a variety of cadences
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Re: FTP and the transfer or lack of to outdoors speed [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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This.....I found this was my issue....FTP inside was not as reproducible outside as I thought it would be and discovered this was the reason why.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
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