I truly enjoyed debating with Dan on our different approaches to TT fitting. I would not have called it a "battle", it was a discussion of the validity of evidence and testing protocols.

I think the big question is - Are fast athlete's fast because some share similar riding positions or is there something more relevant than their riding position that makes them fast? For instance their genetic makeup. I believe fast athletes simply have picked better parents or have won the gene lottery. Yes, we can make them faster by making them more efficient, but at the end of the day these athletes are always going to be faster than age groupers no matter what position you put them in. So to draw correlations between the best in the world and the rest of us is unfounded. The discussion goes way deeper than that even; the top athletes' pain thresholds are beyond most age groupers comprehension. To the point where top athletes have a hard time distinguishing between good pain and bad pain. These athletes are always just below red line, a place where the average person couldn't sustain for anything but a short duration. The point is just because the top athletes are winning, doesn't mean their positions are optimal for them and definitely shouldn't be copied by age groupers that don't have the genetic makeup, training regimen and full time focus on performing as a triathlete. Every fit must be looked at from on individual basis with no preconceived ideas of where you can take the athlete's mind and body to achieve maximum performance.

I will be at Lake Placid this week at the Computrainer booth and will be giving a Bike Fitting presentation on Friday afternoon. I would love to discuss my thoughts with anyone who would be interesting in listening. I am open to ideas and suggestions, so I invite you all to stop by and chat. Bike fitting is a science and like any science it should hold up to challenges and debate.

"Are fast athlete's fast because some share similar riding positions or is there something more relevant than their riding position that makes them fast? "

I personally think that there are far to many individual factors and body type variations to make any specfic "cookbook" fit system a defining factor for everyone. However, it should be used as a good starting point.

There are a lot of individual variations in body types, anatomical proportions, flexibility, fitness, etc. that a cookbook fitting system can't really address.

Also, I believe that the body can adapt quite well with familiarity , so any "ballpark" bike fit will work fairly well for most people.

Just look at how often many of the top riders appear to be doing it all "wrong" when you study photos of their riding position.

Also studying and trying to copy riding positions of the top pro TT or Tri riders is probably irrelevant for most of us MOP AG'ers.

There is always a balance of comfort vs aerodynamics vs power.

Bike fitting is not an exact science.

I think what this statement ""Are fast athlete's fast because some share similar riding positions or is there something more relevant than their riding position that makes them fast? "

points to a truism in science Correlation does not equal causation
two things can occur together however that does not necessarily cause the other.

A silly example is that there is a positive correlation between muggings and ice cream sales. Just becuase these things go together does not mean that one causes the other. The reality might be something that you are nto looking at such as ice cream sales increase with hotter weather which in turn brings people out more which gives greater chances for muggings

This is why there is a need for vigorous experiments

Food for thought...

On a slightly different subject. Paul Levine fit me on my bike. His fit was definately not cookbook. He went through a very extensive interview to find out what my goals in biking were, what distances, previous injuries, fitness goals etc. W thorough assesment of my range of motion, flexibility, If I was going to sum my experience up in one word it would definately be "thorough"

Also the article in triathelte made him sound like a curmudgeon... in reality he is a pleasure to work with and willing to answer all questions.

I would definately reccomend him to anyone on the east coast looking for a bike fitting.

Thanks for the kind words, Taku.

Cerveloguy states : "I believe that the body can adapt quite well with familiarity, so any "ballpark" bike fit will work fairly well for most people." You would assume this to be true, but that hasn't been my experience. I have the luxury of doing 200 plus Tri-fittings a year and have come across many athletes who for what ever reason can distinguish between millimeter changes and others who can't recognize several centimeter changes. And I haven't experienced any correlation between athleticism of the athlete and change sensitivity. I have made extremely minor changes as for as distances or angles to a couple of athletes and to them the bike feels like a totally different bike. These changes probably wouldn't have been perceived by most athletes. Go figure?

The human body is an extremely complicated piece of equipment and should be thoroughly evaluated before asking it to perform at a high level if you expect to achieve positive results and avoid injury.

"Are fast athlete's fast because some share similar riding positions"

obviously not. most athletes shared a commonly slow riding position in the final time trial of the 1989 tour. most athletes were commonly slow in the swim in the first two or three races of the 1987 triathlon season, because they were bare naken while andrew macnaughton, brad kearns and mark montgomery wore tri-specific wetsuits.

being in the majority does not make you faster. but, assuming everyone's using the same technology, it's a strong clue that ought not to be ignored when the great majority of the fastest racers share something specific in common, like a riding position.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have generally felt very similar to this. "Come on, how much difference can a centimeter really make?" Well, after having a FIST fit, I really understand what people mean about saying that the bike fits, or that they feel like it is the perfect bike for them. Now, I'm of the opinion that a centimeter here and a centimeter there really add up. While some may say "don't sweat the small stuff" in reality it's all small stuff, and every bit adds up.

Where did you get FISTed? In Washington?

"it's a strong clue that ought not to be ignored when the great majority of the fastest racers share something specific in common" Agreed, but I take issue with the idea that an age grouper thinks they will be faster if they assume the position of the "faster racers". Because my contention is it is not the position that makes "faster racers" faster than your age groupers, it is way more complicated than that.

A great slow man once stated it best by using the analogy of water skiing: There are people that ski on two skis, those who ski on one ski and then there are those who ski bare foot. The level of athleticism for the bare foot water skier allows them to ski at the performance level that they do. When discussing "faster racers" we are talking at a parallel level of athleticism as the bare foot water skier. Which is actually a very small sector of the water skiing population. I would guess similar to the size of the population of the "faster racers".

As far as water skiing goes you could probably look at two ski water skiing and bare foot water skiing as almost two different sports. Should we not take a similar realistic approach in our sport that a MOP AG is in a totally different league (sport?) than the "faster racers"? I think we allow ourselves to get confused because in our sport anyone can buy and ride the best equipment without getting themselves in to danger. So a MOPer can "look" fast on "fast looking" equipment and actually be slower because of poor position for his athleticism.

And if this is believed to be true, wouldn't it make sense to address the MOP AGs positional coordinates on an individual basis because the best we can do is make this athlete perform at their highest achievable level within their natural range of talent.

Our goal as bike fitters no mattter who we are fitting should be to help facilitate our athlete's ability to:

• Produce power
• Maintain a biomechanical efficient position so not to waste energy
• Maintain a neutral spine so to be balanced and relaxed
• Exchange oxygen efficiently without any restrictions
• Take in nutrients efficiently and aid in digestion

The above holds true for all athletes in any sport. One difference between Triathletes and other athletes is that Triathletes actually have to eat while they play. So proper postion and posture on the bike should not restrict your ability to take in nutrients while performing your sport.

I will get off my soap box now and get ready for my next appointment.

Hope to see you up at LP.

Paul

"the great majority of the fastest racers share something specific in common, like a riding position."

Looking at photos of the fastest riders, there actually seems to be quite a bit of variation in position.

sorry but I've got bad news for you. the window only lasted a couple months. Michael Peters was FIST certified and was working at Sammamish Valley Cycle in Redmond. He took the fist camp on his own time and own bill, so I wouldn't expect SVC to send anyone else. In fact, I heard the ownere and manager, ribbing him some about his preciseness. Michael left SVC in april or may and last I heard is no longer in the bike biz at all.

not what you were hoping to hear, I imagine.

no, it really isn't. thanks though.

Heya Brad,

Thanks for the nice words.



I am alive and well and would be more than happy to do a FIST fit eval for you JOEL!

My email is we3peeps@comcast.com

I have been working with a select group of Ironman Triathletes. One of which won her age group at IM CDA and qualified for Hawaii. I am still working on the fringe of the industry and would love to help you get that positioning.