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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
interesting. I have a pretty strong core so maybe that's why I find a loping stroke less tiring. no doubt I could still make many improvements though.
thanks for posting.

I have a loping stoke anyway but I think it's because I went to single side breathing early on so just have a poor rotation to the other side. My guess is that to do this stroke well rotation is equal on both sides, but that the stroke on one side is longer / stronger than the other? Rather than my effort which is nice rotation right (breathing side), poor rotation left (non breathing side).

Weirdly, if I do single arm drill I am much better to my non breathing side (pulling on left) than to the other. Which contradicts what I actually swim like. I am only a couple of seconds slower for a single length one arm than two on that side (25yd pool - 17s vs 20s).

Sometimes I think there is so much wrong with my swim that every error is just a consequence of many others.

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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not surprised you pull better one-arm with your left arm if you have a loping stroke with right side breathing. During your loping stroke you have a longer glide with your right arm forward, which is the position you hold when doing one-arm left pulling drills. So it's a position your body is used to holding in a glide.
our strokes sound very similar, and I agree that we should probably rotate our cores more to the non-breathing side (while keeping our heads still).
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
I'm not surprised you pull better one-arm with your left arm if you have a loping stroke with right side breathing. During your loping stroke you have a longer glide with your right arm forward, which is the position you hold when doing one-arm left pulling drills. So it's a position your body is used to holding in a glide.
our strokes sound very similar, and I agree that we should probably rotate our cores more to the non-breathing side (while keeping our heads still).

My longer stroke is my right side, which is also my breathing side. I seem to 'flatten out' rather than fully rotate to the left side.

So, it seems I do everything on the right, longer pull and breathe. My left arm gliding (for want of a better word although I am pretty sure I do not overglide). Which is why I am surprised my single arm left pull is better than my right, by a fair margin.

Maybe I should try a short breathe right and a long pull left. Seeing as I pull better with my left in single arm drill and already breathe to the right.

I need to find a coach who works with adult onset triathletes, rather than one who has a pre conceived idea of what is right based on bringing 8 year old dolphins through the ranks. I currently swim solo all the time because every coach tells me to do something different. Swim with head up. Swim with head down. Reduce stroke rate. Increase stroke rate.

Anyway, sorry, I am derailing thread :) ... back to loping strokes ....

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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
My longer stroke is my right side, which is also my breathing side. .

that doesn't sound right. a loping stroke will have a shorter stroke on the breathing side and then a longer glide with the breathing side arm forward.

check at 5:30 in this video of Phelps and you can see his head is down longer as he glides more with his right arm forward, pulling with his left. The shorter (in time) stroke is his right pull (left arm forward) as he breathes to the right. Are you sure this isn't what you're doing?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdp1dltKje8
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
JayPeeWhy wrote:

My longer stroke is my right side, which is also my breathing side. .


that doesn't sound right. a loping stroke will have a shorter stroke on the breathing side and then a longer glide with the breathing side arm forward.

check at 5:30 in this video of Phelps and you can see his head is down longer as he glides more with his right arm forward, pulling with his left. The shorter (in time) stroke is his right pull (left arm forward) as he breathes to the right. Are you sure this isn't what you're doing?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdp1dltKje8

Yes, I can safely say I do not look like Phelps in this video :) I am doing what I said previously. It might be my lack of rotation making my left stroke shorter as it's more awkward. I will give this way a try for sure, if my left stroke is stronger and I am not using it and I can still breathe to my right then surely there are gains to be had there! Will keep you posted. I am not a god awful swimmer (fastest 100m is 1:19 / IM swim PB 1:02 (Whistler this year, but everyone seemed to do well) / CSS is 1:34 per 100m) but seem to have been stuck in a rut for 2 years despite some much bigger swim volume this year (approx 16+ km per week)

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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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That makes sense that you would find it odd. I think it was due to two things:

1) I didn't have the strength developed for a strong pull.... mostly because I hadn't developed a high-elbow pull yet. I was keeping my arm straight during the pull.

2) I didn't have proper body balance in the water to manage the "rocking" motion in the water without sinking below, so I was just fighting the water more than I was gliding through it.
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]
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gantaliano wrote:
Also interesting, I'm much faster at this stroke when breathing to the left. Which is interesting, because breathing to the right has always been the more comfortable side to breathe on....

That actually isn't uncommon at all. I have all my swimmers learn to breathe to either side and over the course of months it often turns out that they are faster to the "other" side.
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. Any Theories?
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]
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It's called a "loper" stroke and it has fallen in and out of favor since at least the 1970s.

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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
From Washington Post:
Her mechanics, common among male swimmers but almost unheard of among women, is often described as a “gallop” or a “giddy-up” stroke, or is said to have a “hitch.” Ledecky has called it a “loping” stroke. Essentially, instead of a steady, metronomic beat — left, right, left, right — her stroke is syncopated: short left, long right, short left, long right. She breathes almost exclusively to the right side.
Yuri Suguiyama, Ledecky’s coach from age 10 to 15, taught her that stroke in the spring of 2011 — about 15 months before she would win gold in London. To hear Ledecky tell the story, it was more or less accidental: She was doing a drill where she was asked to reduce her number of strokes per lap and had to lunge — or gallop — to reach the wall.
“She was swimming more like a classic female distance swimmer,” he recalled. “She would breathe to both sides. She had kind of a sporadic kick, or what we call a two-beat kick. And I don’t know — I just didn’t like the way she swam. . . . I think I was watching [video of] a Phelps race from 2007. His legs were moving the entire time. He had a nice little hitch, or a gallop, and I was like, man, Katie could swim that way. . . . It just takes advantage of the aggression and the kind of fury that she swims with.”
If the best female swimmer in the world swims one way, it would make sense for others to try to copy her. But it isn’t that easy. The gallop stroke requires tons of core strength, the sort many male swimmers possess but few females do.
“We found that it’s a very hip-driven stroke, and I have really good rotation and rhythm with my hip rotation, and I get a lot of power out of my hips,” Ledecky said. “So that stroke kind of maximizes that.”

"The aggression and the fury that she swims with"...This is the way people become fast; they swim very hard, with controlled FURY.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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They also swim very very very fast....


https://twitter.com/CoachGemmell/status/774000913740623872

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
lyrrad wrote:
A hybrid stroke like that usually your breath timing is out.
You are starting to breathe late and consequentially finishing breathing late.
If you are a right side breather, this usually pushes your left arm wider at the front and also causes a bit of front crossover with the breathing arm.
Because the head is still out late, the body position is still disrupted and the left shoulder then drops deep in the water making it hard to maintain a high glide so it is intuitive to begin stroking as soon as the shoulder begins to drop.

Try consciously starting to roll your head earlier to breathe and you will find that as you can now return your head earlier, your body position will stabilise earlier and you will now be able to get a full glide/catch on the other side without feeling like you are sinking and wanting to rush the stroke.

What has finally clicked for you is that you are now aware of you body position more and are making subconscious changes to maintain your body position.
You are automatically changing your stroke to fix the problem that late breathing is creating.


So are you saying that a hybrid stroke is "two wrongs" and should not be encouraged? It seems to work well for some people, including Phelps and Ledecky, who presumably do it on purpose to be faster.

What I'm saying is that breath timing can radically alter your stroke.
Whether intentional or not.
The hybrid may be preferred by these athletes because in reality if you look close, it is not a late breathing error as in starting to breathe late, but more of a breathe longer by delaying the end of the breathe to enable a longer breathe time.
Some like Kieran Perkins used to breathe on every stroke on both sides at times to catch up with breathing needs, I also do the same as I find it better for me to do this rather disrupt the stroke with a timing error.

I've found that late breathing errors can usually be picked easily as the athlete will be a strong single arm swimmer but something just doesn't work when they go full stroke.
Late breathing will affect big rollers more than less rollers,
So if you are female or a large chested male, who tend towards a flatter stroke, those techniques may work for you.
But if you are a more fully rolling swimmer that uses more lats for power, then those timing errors will destroy your stroke.
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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As to which side to breathe, you have a much larger lung capacity on the right side of your body, so if you do enough swimming breathing left side you may very well find a sped increase over right side breathing due to the greater buoyancy keeping better body position.
Most people learn right handed because they can co-ordinate it better and never change.
All open water swimmers should be able to breathe both sides and to breathe every arm stroke if need be for short times.
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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If she did a 400 warm up in 6 minutes, went right into the set and did a 100 warm down at the end then she did a 3000 workout in ~32 minutes. HA.

I realized that is not how it went down of course...
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
They also swim very very very fast....


https://twitter.com/CoachGemmell/status/774000913740623872

Those are indeed some very, very fast swims , espec for a girl. So, I guess KL is settling in at Stanford now, it will be interesting to see her rewrite the NCAA record books. One other Q occurs to me: do the Stanford men's and women's team practice separately??? It seems that KL improved a lot from chasing faster boys on her club team.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - separate programs. I'm sure though they'll jump through hoops for KL to get what she needs. The direction the Stanford men are headed though doesn't portend well for a challenge though.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
Yes - separate programs. I'm sure though they'll jump through hoops for KL to get what she needs. The direction the Stanford men are headed though doesn't portend well for a challenge though.

Surely the men's D swimmers could give her challenge, or not??? Maybe they'll have to get relays to compete with KL in practice. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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They could prob hang with, but I don't think beat, those times. Her 15:13 American Record in the 1650 is 2 years old, and the fastest swimmer on the Stanford men's team was 14:53 last year...

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
They could prob hang with, but I don't think beat, those times. Her 15:13 American Record in the 1650 is 2 years old, and the fastest swimmer on the Stanford men's team was 14:53 last year...

Interesting....well, she will just have to lead the men's D lane, espec since I've read that she is a faster practice swimmer than most guys. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]
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I am a lifelong swimmer, and for almost all of these last 38 years, I've been exclusively a right-side breather. I've had some pretty decent success at that. I got serious about marathon (Boston q) in my 30s. The most interesting thing is that a few months before my Boston run, after I went back to swimming for USMS Nationals and FINA Worlds masters in 2006 and then got back to run training, I had TERRIBLE left-side hip and back issues that made it difficult for me to even walk. Initially, I was diagnosed with anatomical limb-length discrepancy by about 3 cm. I put lifts in one shoe, but it didn't help. I got assessed again, only to find that it was a FUNCTIONAL limb-length discrepancy. A few days of an and core exercises fixed that right up.

In years snice, I found that the left heel on my shoes wore much quicker. Finally, it was suggested to me by a runner/employee at the local run store that it could be because I breathed only to the right. She's a non-swimmer, but her conjecture wa spot-on. EUREKA! Because of the minor differences in flexibility and strength on each side of the long axis, my left lattisimus dorsi and my right obliques were more flexible bc of the longer reach with my left arm while breathing right, while my right lats and left obliques were stronger, but with less flexibility. This affected my running gait, and led to the terrible back pain until I did more Core strengthening.

I am a lifelong swimmer with literally millions of meters in training. I'm not saying that breathing one side will do that to you at your level of adult-onset swimming, but it's interesting to see what a lifetime of right-side breathing did to my run gait. If Ledecky ever gets into running, she will definitely have to focus on some Core stabilization if she wants to do anything as a runner without back pain and heel-wearing.
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
Yes - separate programs. I'm sure though they'll jump through hoops for KL to get what she needs. The direction the Stanford men are headed though doesn't portend well for a challenge though.


On good authority from a Stanford swimmer, it is "technically prohibited" for her to swim with the men's team, but there may be certain scenarios where they can get swims together. I did not ask what that meant exactly.

As for the hybrid swimming - it clearly works for her and many other very strong, power-type swimmers. More power to'em.

Steve
Last edited by: Blue_Quest: Sep 12, 16 10:37
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Blue_Quest] [ In reply to ]
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Blue_Quest wrote:
tallswimmer wrote:
Yes - separate programs. I'm sure though they'll jump through hoops for KL to get what she needs. The direction the Stanford men are headed though doesn't portend well for a challenge though.


On good authority from a Stanford swimmer, it is "technically prohibited" for her to swim with the men's team, but there may be certain scenarios where they can get swims together. I did not ask what that meant exactly.
As for the hybrid swimming - it clearly works for her and many other very strong, power-type swimmers. More power to'em.
Steve

Ah, thanks for the inside scoop. It does seem kind of weird though; it's not like this is 1916 and the boys go to the YMCA and girls to YWCA. I wonder what the reasoning behind this rule is???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Ah, thanks for the inside scoop. It does seem kind of weird though; it's not like this is 1916 and the boys go to the YMCA and girls to YWCA. I wonder what the reasoning behind this rule is???

Good question. Wouldn't surprise me if this has something to do with NCAA/Federal regulations, and the ability to account for funding levels to the men's and women's sports as part of Title XI (??)
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Re: FINALLY figured out hybrid freestyle [Blue_Quest] [ In reply to ]
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Blue_Quest wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Ah, thanks for the inside scoop. It does seem kind of weird though; it's not like this is 1916 and the boys go to the YMCA and girls to YWCA. I wonder what the reasoning behind this rule is???


Good question. Wouldn't surprise me if this has something to do with NCAA/Federal regulations, and the ability to account for funding levels to the men's and women's sports as part of Title IX (??)

Ah, good point, I had not even thought of that angle. Maybe the Feds are afraid a school might say they have a women's team but only have 5 or 6 girls training with 30 boys in one workout. OTOH, you'd think an investigator could just pop his head in the pool and count the number of guys vs number of girls. But, on the other other hand, the fed regs are not known for being straightforward. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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