Not at all surprised as the writing was on the wall..

The "You are an Ironman" marketing would have most people believe that if it doesn't have an M-Dot attached it isn't worth going to.

There's only so many events that can be supported under the "toughest / most extreme / most difficult" banner. Heck, even Savageman had to adapt a bit.

It's not just a matter of Ironman in the marketplace...it's a matter of people having so many options in the marketplace across all disciplines that you have to deliver an exceptional event and year-round touchpoint in order to remain top of mind.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

And you have to have something special to get people to travel to such remote locations.

Can’t speak for everyone else, but the requirement of a support crew basically puts these races out of reach for me.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

The remote locations are exactly what make races like those special like Patagonia where only 300 raced.

I was never confident that the Alohaman would be popular as Hawaii and Iron races are getting saturated with Kona and the Epic 5 and Epic 10 and that other 5x Iron thing they have.Hell even Ultraman only had 28 starters which is a lot less than the 40 person limit that they used to fill.

I had zero interest in the Alaska or Iceland races because I’m just not swimming in water that cold. Alohaman was more interesting for me because it’s a warm water swim. Nevertheless the support crew requirement made it a non-starter. I’m not one to burden someone like that plus I’d end up having to pay their way so a race like that would get stupid expensive.

I did all of Aaron P’s triathlons at some point in Houston and his races were the gold standard for local tris, IMO. So I’m sure his extreme races were excellent as well. It’s just that extreme triathlons are a niche within a niche within another niche. There’s just no way any race like that is financially viable.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

sure. the remote locations help make them special. But I'm guessing it contributed to it's low registration numbers (how much of course is hard to say). Having to fly to alaska and bring along your own support team makes for an expensive race. I can definitely see where that is a deterrent for some as well as there are only so many people interested in doing such challenging races.

I think point one is a mute point given the massive over subsciption for norseman lottery

at the end its about coolness ( your 2nd point ) of an event as most people that dont get a lottery slot for norseman have never done and never will do an alterntive event in that genre

That really sucks but as has been stated, isn't surprising for a number of factors. The cost of travel to remote locations, the support crews (costing extra money) and the challenge of the events themselves. It does seem like M-Dot branded races garner more attention than epic events like these.

I think anyone who did them would agree. I've done a Alcatraz and few IM events and when Onurmark was at its peak their race production value was just as high as those international level events. One thing that is evident from this cycle of events: the money to be made is in putting on the very best races.

I bet AP moves back to Houston. Maybe I just hope so.

That's precisely my point, though. Norseman has the market covered for "most extreme 140.6 distance triathlon." Attempting to compete with it, in my mind, is a fool's errand. People want either that specific experience, or nothing.

Same with non-branded 140.6 events that aren't named Roth.

In my mind, there's a pocket for the "weekend festival" type of event offering multiple distances across a few days. But beyond that, it'd be very tough IMO to try and compete at the 70.3/140.6 distance unless you have a very big experience differentiator, the population center to draw from, and have a good knack for marketing. And still, you're probably going to need to put on a bunch of other races in your portfolio (run / short course triathlon / anything else) to be able to pull it all together.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Which makes me wonder about Canadaman (Woman)... any thoughts on this one?

I thought that I heard this race was on the bubble already. I might be wrong though.

Canadaman is a fantastic race. If you are NA based, you can drive there which eliminates some of the logistical challenges of Norseman or Celtman (pretty remote, mostly getting lodging nearby...). They have had the numbers via individual and team entries and would *expect* that race to continue as it receives some extra support from regional governmental funding.

As for the race itself, it is seasonal weather, so no cold swim typically experienced at Norseman. While you're not climbing 12K of the 5 mountains, you'll still have 10K of rollers on the bike course. There's really only two flat sections otherwise it's steep rollers the entire way. And the run is harder. The weather factor at Norseman can make that race harder if it is 35 F degrees and raining on the bike, or 80 degrees and sunny.

I've done both races, I'd do them both again in a moment, but I'm doing Celtman this year. Norseman has the longer pedigree and is darn tough. Canadaman is also hard but in a different way.

Hate to hear this. My experience at Alaskaman was exceptional! Definitely the trip of a lifetime - unfortunately, not one I want have again!

I did the Alaskaman last 2 years only because I live literally a block off the bike course. I’d agree the hardest part, aside from tons of training, was coordinating people for support crew. It was pain ass getting everyone’s waivers and gear checked etc.

In the end it was cool because your friends are experiencing the event with you but it kind of turned me off to doing next year .

I was interested in a couple of the shorter event options (10 mile mountain run) but I guess it’s a no go.

To be able to have success as an extreme triathlon you will need three factors to play to your advantage.

1. How easy is it to organize. All extreme triathlons are difficult to organize. It is a lot of work for few athletes. But if you have difficulties with permits, local government, traffic rules, land owners, liability laws, etc, the complexity can be too much.

2. Money. Is the triathlon organized by a club that does it for the love of the sport, or is it part of a commercial entity? It is hard to make money out of an extreme triathlon.

3. Market. You will need strong demand in the local market for the event. Not every country has athletes that want to race an event like this.

It is sad to see well organized events disappear. But I totally understand the decition of the race organizer.

I Think there's a few points here...

Triathlon is on the wane... yep... IN AMERICA.
Not necessarily elsewhere.

I agree the M-dot is what most seem to want (and don't know no better than) as per many other threads on the demise of independent events - IN AMERICA). Independent events are alive and well in some other parts of the world (Outlaw just announced its 4th half distance race from 2020 on top of the full distance that's run for a decade here in Britain as an example, with sell-out fields for most events each year as one example).

The travel to Alaska or Hawai'i is a hugely expensive excercise. And it does become offputting when it feels like gouging.

At least for XTRI, having a support crew is fundemental to the whole ethos of the race - they are part if the race - it's a team effort - not just a solo racer and some spectators getting bored for 12-17 hours.
I did an XTRI event earlier this year- and my friends who did my support said they had the best of times. So much so we're in again next year. Even if aid stations and no support team was possible, that cuts out a core element of the very race experience that marks it out from M-Dot.

Its also probably this self-support approach that makes the events possible at all - you're not going to get a feed station set up half way along a mountain ridgeline !

The races need to be relatively small to be possible - you just can't go putting 2000 people into the remote mountains and have 2000 support cars on singletrack roads.

The locations won't bear the WTC city-finance-gouging either. Go tell a small town in the Andes they have to pay $$$$$ to a investment corporation to have the honour of hosting an event - they will tell the organiser to fheck orf.

Mass entry world domination is never going to fly.

I think it is very tricky and also very sad. The number of those looking for extreme events is much much smaller than those of people hunting for PRs, fast courses, VIP treatment, M-dot bragging rights, tattoos etc. But there are now a ton of extreme events.

I however would highly recommend for folks to step outside the box and try something different.

These exact reasons highlight that there must be a different business plan for running these types of events. I think that's the key to the longevity and success (whatever the RD's definition of success is) for races that have such high costs for participants and RDs. I love that these Extreme Tris are an option and I hope that Aaron and his team figure out how to keep them around.

I agree with you, but I’m not sure why. I’m a six time loser in the Norseman lottery but haven’t been compelled to enter any of the other extreme races. If you can’t do Norseman, why not do another race that offers a roughly comparable experience? Haven’t personally been able to reconcile that.

Yep. I did my own self-supported Ultraman here in Texas because I wanted to do one, but couldn't justify to my family spending that kind of money on "being the best at exercising" when we have plenty of other living expenses already. I swam the 10k in a local lake and then biked the 90-something miles on a hilly route for day 1. Biked the 170 something miles on another hilly route on day 2. Ran the double-marathon around my neighborhood in some ugly heat on day 3. Really enjoyed it and it was easily as difficult as the real thing, if not more, and thousands of dollars cheaper. And I got to sleep in my own bed and eat and drink pizza and beer right from my own house when I was done.

You might be on to something with the crewing problem. If they dropped the requirement that you have to bring all this crew with you, it would be incredibly cheaper. And honestly, you'd be fine. You really only need an aid station every 20 miles on the bike and 3 miles on the run. Tell people to learn to pack their fuel as concentrate or deal with whatever is on course.

What about money for top finishers? Would that be a good draw for athletes to try to win these events?

You could have two kinds of entries - people that just want to finish and people who want to compete for money. The latter would pay more money upfront to go towards the prize pool.

Hazardous terrain and temperatures make it tough, but with money at stake - it might drive increased demand. Also, they could setup preliminary race registrations to 'unlock' a race. No race unless demand is sufficient. This might alleviate closing races.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Not to reply specifically to you, but the thread in general.

We just returned from Patagonman. It was our first experience of XTRI. It will not be our last. XTRI is definitely a niche within a niche. But for us it affords what Ironman used to and before it 'evolved' (our first Ironman was 2006).

That today's average Ironman participant feels turned off by these events - for whatever reason - is what makes these events special. Patagonman reminded us of Silverman when Frank Lowery ran it and before it was bought by Ironman. To quote Norseman: "This is not for you. Nothing personal, but it's not."

In Chile there was very little posturing and preening. There was very little narcissism. The only people we saw behaving this way - as a large number of Ironman participants do during race week - failed to finish the course. And boy did they then whinge!

Everyone got to know one another. It felt more like a big training camp. If you could spare something it was shared. The feeling was that we were all in it together. The organisers were absolutely incredible in fostering this ethos via Facebook and during race week, and if they could help in any way they bent over backwards to. Their customer service was absolutely amazing. We departed feeling incredibly loyal to them and the people of the region.

An example came with Support. If you did not have one, no problem. Get in touch and they will organise this with someone from the local community. The women's race winner - Flora Coledge - did just that, and the experience for her, and the others that went this route, was really quite rewarding: https://www.instagram.com/p/B5lisI9h7sv/ It should not just be about the race, but using the race to experience the region and its people. It should be about a shared experience. This is the quick report I put together for my bike sponsor: http://www.lapdogs.ca/...019/12/10/patagonman

So good was our experience that we have already been in touch with AMAZIGH XTRI in Morocco about their event next year. My wife is happy to be Support but does not want to run the final 20KM. We therefore asked if I could run the final 20KM solo with a pack or somehow work with the local community to help create awareness in exchange for them finding us a runner. AMAZIGH XTRI have been very accommodating and we will be sitting down together in April when I return to Morocco for another event.

I do not think these races will be hugely profitable in the long run. But I do think they can turn a small profit and survive. However, it will depend on what we, as participants, are willing to do to help them. It will depend on how we chose to engage with them so that they may, in return, provide us with an unforgettable experience. The Patagonman organisers were very interested in using the race to help develop the region. When we talked to them we batted around ideas of how to make this happen. They want to serve people who WANT to be there. We would much rather have this than the sanitised Ironman experience. The best analogy I can come up with is all-inclusive holiday resorts. That is what Ironman is, and those who go to them often fail to see the region and the people that host them.

It is all about what you are looking for and want to put in. We will see where it goes but, for now, Ironman has lost our money. It is a shame some XTRI events are being discontinued and at risk, but it is understandable. They are not for everyone, and may be more susceptible to the risks of competition and not being seen as worthwhile destinations given the effort and cost to get there.

Totally agree Scobig. I’m glad I jumped in and experienced Iceland when I had the opportunity.