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Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming
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So, after running the wheels off the bus trying really hard to follow a training plan twice in a row, I am thinking about trying something very different for 2019.

What i used to do is identify competition dates that would be considered "A", "B", "C" etc., and then insert some pre-packaged training plans into TrainingPeaks roughly based around those competition dates. I used some judgment in choosing plans that seemed to match up with what has worked for me in the past, and i would move around some workouts based on work, travel, other plans, etc., but i generally accepted the idea that discipline required pretty detailed planning.

However, the plans didn't really match up that well with me all the time, even though they sometimes did. For example, i think i tend to come into form on the quick side, meaning that your average "Build/Peak/Race" plan is too long and includes a couple weeks of just grinding gears plus a too early peak / crash. Other times i would find myself still really raring to go during a programmed "rest" week, or really effing tired during a non-rest week. Other times within the week I would just find i didn't have it, and you can always impose flexibility on a plan by moving workouts around, but what about situations where say your body is ready to work, but the workout you have already rigidly programmed for that day isn't the right one? Finally, structured training i think has a disadvantage in that the power targets end up inadvertently imposing a mental limitation on your achievement, plus the fact that above FTP, %FTP (which most plans use) is not that great a way to prescribe intensity because everyone's physiology in that range is different.

This year i am going to do an experiment where i don't use any training plans at all, other than a broad, macro plan. The steps will be:

1. Determine A competition dates
2. Begin season by working on aerobic endurance (and weights), with no real plan other than a conservative TSS target for each week, building each week until i feel tired, riding on days that i don't feel tired and resting on days that i do - I am going to see if HRV works to guide this
3. 12 weeks out i'll start general prep - shorter, harder intervals (including VO2 max), same principle (ride when not tired, build as long as not tired) - a couple of things could help guide this, including HRV, WKO4 optimized intervals and a blood oxygen sensor like Humon Hex
4. 6 weeks out i'll start doing specific race prep - e.g., MTB race starts, MTB race simulations (just riding as hard as you can go on an off road course for 90 mins), same principle (ride when not tired, build as long as not tired)
5. do a peak / taper about 2 weeks out from any A race (there won't be many)

I tried the free trial of Xert and i liked the concept--it tries to build a profile and tell you what you should work on in order to get wher eyou want to be, but it still uses a model to predict how tired you should be and how fit you should be, rather than of course being able to tell you where you actually are.

With all my gadgets and data, I think i rather have the resources to do this myself, totally dynamic, totally based on how I actually am at that point in time rather than based on a plan or model.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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Also, anybody ever try this?

And, about how long does it take people to “max out” on aerobic fitness before moving onto more specific prep?

About how long has it taken you to max out on Vo2max workouts?
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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All experienced endurance athletes I know do something like that! Go for it!

(And I know several who have/have had international careers and I´ve coached some pros)
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [fb] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you! We’ll see how this goes
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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devolikewhoa83 wrote:
And, about how long does it take people to “max out” on aerobic fitness before moving onto more specific prep?
About how long has it taken you to max out on Vo2max workouts?


Aerobic fitness is a decades long project. If you have a history of overdoing training and being tired for races, I'd recommend lots of riding where you stay ~70% of FTP and below. Do high intensity (FTP+) sparingly, even when prepping for a race.

IME it would take about 6 weeks of hard riding after a "rest" period like winter to get in race shape. Vo2 specifically would plateau very quick if I was already in shape. 2nd session would improve over 1st, but pretty much nothing after that.

I've never followed a plan except in broad strokes. I've never been able to tolerate a lot of training and recovery tends to be slow, so I have to be careful especially with high intensity workouts.
Last edited by: rruff: Feb 16, 19 14:26
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Brother from another mother. I've arrived at the same place as you. As a masters cyclist pretty much the only intensity I do is racing. The rest of the time I'm just doing many hours at <200W. Took me a long time to accept.

H.S. and college were rough for me. All my teams used daily intra-squad competition as training doctrine. So I'd start the season as one of the fastest, running X-C at sub-5 pace. And end every season barely able to break 7:00.

I think it damaged me somehow, as today I have to be super careful. Last year I doubled up and did a P12 crit after the masters crit. Finished well, but it set my training back 2 months.
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Now that you mention it I played basketball in HS. None of us "worked out" in the offseason. Pre season the coach would time us on a 2 mile run. I was fastest. But the daily sprinting drills took their toll on me, and I got slower (relatively). My senior year we got a new coach who actually had us training before school and after school every day, plus weekends and holidays. No tapering for events either, rather the opposite. Every single person was tired and overtrained. His solution was to train us harder!

I've always been relatively poor at recovery when I started cycling. I loved hard efforts but needed a rest day in between. At stage races I always got weaker and weaker. About 5 years ago (age 54 at the time) my ability to recover pretty suddenly took a further dive. I need a week to recover from a race; even a short one. When prepping I can do 1-2 hard interval sessions a week (not 100% but close), for a few weeks so long as I'm really careful. Otherwise it's all modest pace, ~70% FTP or less, with as much volume as I can do.
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the feedback, nice to know others are in the same boat. Seeing this, it seems so obvious that training plans will not necessarily be one-size-fits all, but it's easy to get too caught up in / obsessing over completing your "planned workout for the day". I think personally, I need to build up the aerobic fitness nice and long (I took a long break from cycling, 10+ years) and think of myself as having a pretty small intensity budget at the moment.

And Trail, i was the same way. I was very good at XC and not that good at Track and Field and I didn't know why. Well, for XC we had a coach whose philosophy was to do mostly LSD, whereas for track our coach had us doing basically all intervals, all the time. End result was running right around 5 mins for a 5K in the fall, but barely being able to break 5 for one single mile in the spring!
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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I spent my first several years in triathlon doing the very structured coach provided workout plan/routine you outlined. I think it helped provide a good base of knowledge, techniques, fitness, etc. required. But after a few years and with a life of family and job outside of triathlon I completely abandoned both coach and plan. And absolutely loved it, and got faster.
I agree with other comments that fitness and aerobic base is a several year/life long pursuit. I found that after you have that years of base it really comes down to small little tweaks. I also enjoyed my time training a LOT more. I wasn't as concerned about having to hit a specific workout on a specific day. I knew it just didn't matter if I got that workout in on Tuesday night or sometime later in the week, or not at all. I started enjoying my time/workouts with other people. Runs, group rides etc. I ended up as fast or faster than I had ever been across all disciplines (tri, xterra, run, mtb races, etc.). I just found events that motivated me and then loosely ramped up as those dates approached but mostly focused on enjoying the process and encouraging others.
It's worth a shot. I don't think you will you take any steps backwards. More than likely you will stay the same or get faster and generally enjoy things a bit more. Good luck.
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Re: Experiment for 2019 - Dynamic "non-programmed" programming [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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devolikewhoa83 wrote:

I tried the free trial of Xert and i liked the concept--it tries to build a profile and tell you what you should work on in order to get wher eyou want to be, but it still uses a model to predict how tired you should be and how fit you should be, rather than of course being able to tell you where you actually are.

Check out "Freshness Feedback". http://baronbiosys.com/.../freshness-feedback/

Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
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