Specs on the Enve website say the fronts are 26 mm wide and the rears are 24 mm wide. That's for the 6.7 clincher and for the 8.9 tubular (as the 8.9 clincher is not yet listed on the website).

Right, I saw that. But are they talking about the widest point of the rims, or the widths of the brake tracks? Because sometimes those are totally different numbers.

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If I had the money, I'd trade my zipp 808s for enve. The cool factor alone is worth it. I think they are equally aero, so I'm not even going to write some phoney baloney bs about these tests that supposedly show differences. I'd get everything enve if I could!

I gave Fairwheel Bikes a call - real nice guys. $2710 for a set of 6.5's laced to DT Swiss 240's. They are within a few hundred of the Zipps.

Enves for sure. B a little different from the Shimano/Zipp/ Tiawan carbon frame rider. Stand out a little!

Be sure you had 'em price the clinchers! Don't want an unpleasant surprise again. ;-)

They quote tubs for $2582 on their site... So around $2700 sounds right for clinchers.

I found a 2012 Zipp 404 FC for $2150 after tax (LBS)

$550 less than Enve. Enve claims that the DT 240 hubs are better than the zipps.

To elaborate on the "handle quite poorly in crosswinds" statement, Zipp used the same CFD modeling program (solving for rotational/translational performance over time) to model several of their competitors. Based on these data, the natural frequency of eddy shedding of the various wheels was determined. The validity of the model is certainly a topic for discussion, but it has been shown to be accurate and robust in CFD vs. windtunnel testing. The ENVE wheels shed eddies at a frequency that coincides with human "natural frequencies" - my recollection is that it's about 2Hz; this was a phone call with Josh P, so I'm sorry not to have more detailed records. So, this led Zipp to ask folks what they thought of the wheels at races. And, when I saw folks riding ENVE wheels, I'd ask, "what do you think?" It was a consistent response of "I don't think they handle well in crosswinds." That's what the CFD said should be the case. And that's what seems to be the case in talking to folks who ride them.

In my experience, this really becomes notable with higher depths. I.e., I never had an issue with older 404s, though I did notice in strong and gusty winds that the new 404s are easier. The really palpable difference came between older 808s and new 808s. Is your 808 a FC or prior version?

I have Zipp listed among my sponsors on every post I write. Do you think that is inadequate disclosure? Furthermore, in my experience, I would say my own bias is certainly no greater than that of someone who's shelled out a bunch of money for expensive wheels who wants to convince himself that he made a good investment. If you think the fact that I'm paid to ride Zipps somehow makes me less trustworthy than you because you paid for your ENVE's, I'd say you don't spend much time online (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing). The "fanboy" culture is pretty insane in today's society. Read any article about Apple vs. Google, and it's astounding what people will write. I am not denying my own bias - I know the Zipp engineers; I know how the product is developed; I have a lot of miles on the wheels; I love the company. But don't deny your own. We all have our biases. But hurling bias accusations at one another does very little to actually help provide relevant information.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I wouldn't say they're $550 better. $2150 sounds like a pretty good deal on a new 2012 Firecrest 404 wheelset.

ALWAYS appreciate your insight Jordan. I'm no fanboy either way (actually, was more of a Zipp fanboy since I know/race against some of the factory team guys in my area)

You mentioned that you asked athletes what they think so I'll chime in and say that my Enve wheels handle just fine in crosswinds. No issues at all. In fact, the ONLY front wheel I had a handful with was an old Zipp 1080. Yowza. Gusts will tug on an old Jet 90 is run with 19mm for a short dedicated TT. I have no issues with my 404 clinchers either. But overall, I like the weight savings, durability and hub (options) on Enve wheels better, even if they are slightly more expensive (do people actually pay retail for these crazy wheelset prices?) I do think Zipp puts in a bit more research into their wheels and are always the innovators, but Enve *builds* the better one.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I don't care who sponsors Jordan... from all the posts I've read, he has nearly always been unbiased and objective. So, when he says something about Zipp wheels, even if he is sponsored by them, he always tackles the concern from an engineering perspective.

Anyway, Jordan, when you say that anecdotal evidence (the consensus you've heard) that they (Enves) handle poorly in crosswinds, you are already referring to the Smart Enves? I had a friend who had the original non-Smart Enve, then upgraded to the Smart Enve wheels. He says that the Smart ones do handle better in crosswinds.


BTW, not that "Simon Smart > than Michael Hall" (which is an absurd statement), but F1>Indy... LOL. :p


FWIW, I have tried 404FCs (front) for a short while. In some crosswinds, they handled just as well as the Smart 6.7 (well, just the "6"). Both were paired with a Hed Jet 9 C2 rear. I haven't tried 808FCs. In any case, I loved both the Zipp and the Enve.

Learning more about enve wheels ...
Which model(s) do you ride where you tested them in cross-winds? were they the 'smart' models?

Greg @ dsw

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To add my opinion to the debate I have done a fair amount of riding on ENVE and Zipp wheels.

1 x Season on 808's (pre-firecrest)
1 x Season 808's (firecrest)
.5 x Season ENVE 8.9's

All have been tubs and all on Conti Comp tyres. I am a road cyclist and not a triathlete, although I have done the bike leg of an ironman before. So my opinion may be different in that my requirements are different to triathletes (along with the usual fact as a road cyclist I can handle a bike *gags*).

I found the pre 808 Firecrests actually worse to ride in a TT than an 808 front and rear disc, they were unpredictable in gusty conditions.

The 808 Firecrests were a big improvement here and I really enjoyed these wheels. They are a great TT wheel and a great road race wheel. I think the hubs are excellent too. They hubs require more attention than say DT 240's as you have to adjust them a bit more, so they aren't set and forget, but they are really good and reliable.

The ENVE 8.9's are an equally good wheel as far as aero and stiffness. The DT 240 hubs are set and forget and every bit as reliable as the Zipp hubs. The ENVE wheels are the same to handle in a constant wind as the Zipp wheels, and both are predictable in constant wind/breeze. The ENVE wheels outperform the Zipp wheels in gusty conditions, they appear to react more predictably, whereas the 808's can at times be hard to handle in big wind gusts (50-60kph+). The ENVE wheels are also more predictable in their handling in a bunch in a crit with constant direction changes.



I won't debate the aero advantage of one over the other as there is plenty of data out there. But the handling of the ENVE wheels is better IMO. I think the ENVE wheels also look better, so they get some style points. Whatever wheel you choose you are going to end up with a nice set of wheels. It depends on your requirements, triathlon stuff, both wheels are great, you have minimal direction changes and less to worry about. Road racing / crits, the ENVE 8.9's are great and can be ridden in nearly all wind conditions.

P.S. FYI I pay for all wheels I ride and am not aligned with either company.

P.P.S. Just get some Lightweight Fernwegs, way cooler than either set of wheels.

Getting new race wheels for Christmas...Enve 6.7s with Chris King hubs. Moving up from HED Jet 6 SCTs. Highly recommended by my bike fit guru in Houston. No first hand knowledge yet. They sure look cool. Will be riding them Saturday afternoon after a re-fit. Can't wait.

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SM Gose
Red Lodge, MT

This was a pair of Smart wheels. As rroof and bobby11 posted, though, they think ENVEs handle fine. ENVEs clearly are not "unrideable." But it'd be nice if you got a chance to ride them, as the folks that were not fans were certainly not inexperienced riders. Tire choice, of course, will be a factor in all tests.

As for F1 vs. Indy, the problem with both is that they are not MotoGP engineers, meaning that neither sport has much experience with rotating objects that see clean air. And even with motoGP, you don't have rotating airfoils. In that sense, the very low speeds of bike racing and the fact that wheels are in and of themselves such a massive part of the aerodynamic system and are also airfoils themselves makes bikes unique. Bikes are simple in a lot of ways, but also not. Especially when you consider how much smaller of a budget you are generally referring to for R&D... That said, Zipp spends over $20,000 a year per engineer (and they have ~20) on computing platforms alone. Whether or not that's a good investment is up to the person cutting the check for the wheels...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I would say my own bias is certainly no greater than that of someone who's shelled out a bunch of money for expensive wheels who wants to convince himself that he made a good investment.

I bought my ENVEs used off of the ST Classifieds. I bought my Zipp 404 and 808 (both Firecrest clinchers) from my LBS. I have so many sets of HEDs -- Jets and Stingers, 6s and 9s and discs -- I can't remember where I bought them all. I don't feel at all compelled to defend the Enves because of what I have invested in them. In matter of fact, if you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that I actually recommended the new Bonty Aeolus D3 wheels over either of the OPs choices. As I understand it, the carbon clincher version of the D3 wheels is made for them by Zipp, but they use hub internals that are essentially the DT Swiss 180s. Very, very nice hubs.

That's interesting information about the ENVE wheels from your Zipp contacts and the people you've spoken with who ride them. It doesn't jive at all with my direct experience with the 3.4s. Maybe the 6.7s are somehow dramatically different. I have a friend who rides them and he hasn't reported any issues, but he hasn't had Firecrests for comparison as I have.


As for any accusation of bias, lets call it an accusation of sponsorship, shall we? That sounds less harsh and even a bit congratulatory. And sorry I failed to notice your list of sponsors at the bottom of your post. I guess I thought that was a disclosure of potential side-effects from reading your posts or something. My mind just blocked it out. ;-)

I went back and forth myself and did a lot of research and asked tons of informed people before I made my decision. A great amount of bike shops all told me that the zipps do not hold up well over time. I was told that they need a good amount of maintenance and tuning. As far as someone saying ENVE is a "nice" wheel comparing it to a Zipp is laughable. I've had mine for over 2 years without any problems and they handle in the winds just fine. No problem there either. In my opinion there are times when engineers or designers hit the nail on the head and don't have to spend time and money on marketing because the product speaks for itself. Case in point is omega brakes. Designed and built by Nick and he is not a million dollar company. Just because ENVE has not been around as long as or does not have the budget Zipp has does not make them a inferior company. I plan on upgrading from my 6.7's to the 8.9's for 2013. I have never questioned my original purchase, not for a second.

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LOL! Wish we could... I think the Fernwegs' brand comes from the fact that the wallet becomes Lightweight after...

Ciao, after 6 month have you the same opinion?