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Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8
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https://www.enve.com/...cSjJVAD6Kg%3D.rHwQpi

Enve just released their new SES wheels going hookless on the 2.3, 3.4, 4.5, and 5.6 with a wider internal width (5.6 is 23 mm). But the 7.8 remains unchanged with a hooked design and 19mm internal width. Dan mentioned a few months ago that we should see triathlon wheels starting to go hookless this year perhaps before Kona. So why go hookless on all the wheels except the 7.8? Or the better question is, why didn't the 7.8 go hookless?


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TEST NOTES
- Testing performed either at Mercedes GP & Silverstone Sports Engineering Hub wind tunnels
- Testing performed at both 32 kph/20 mph and 48 kph/30 mph
- Testing performed with ENVE SES tires
- SES lineup developed and optimized around SES 27
- All testing performed in a complete bicycle

BIKES
- ENVE Custom Road w/ SES AR handlebar, 56cm, Shimano Di2
- Specialized Tarmac SL7 w/ Rapide handlebar, 56cm, Shimano Di2

















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Last edited by: stevej: May 27, 22 4:49
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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They didn’t go hookless with the 7.8 because they didn’t update the 7.8 and are going to push the new 6.7 as their tri/TT wheelset.

My understanding is that the 7.8 is essentially discontinued, i.e. not part of the Enve product lineup going forward, so get them now if you want them.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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i could see that. If you believe their aero data, the new 6.7 is almost on pair with the the 7.8.
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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In the Rule of 105 thread a few weeks back the main takeaway is most hookless wheels aren’t optimized for both minimum tire size and 105% run width. This along with Zipps and updated Hunts should giveaway few options for hookless wheels that do it all.
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [iliketri] [ In reply to ]
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iliketri wrote:
i could see that. If you believe their aero data, the new 6.7 is almost on pair with the the 7.8.
I haven't seen the data. Can you share a link?

IN SEARCH OF APP DEVELOPER. DM me. Equity on table.
Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. When I first looked at the link I posted, it did notice they were marketing the 6.7 as a tri/TT wheel. I kind of get discontinuing the 7.8 but at the same time I don’t. The wheels were always made to order so it’s not like they have a bunch of 7.8’s laying around they need to get rid of (at least that’s my understanding). And they always marketed the 7.8 as “made for Kona” and “faster than an 808, handles like a 404”. Triathletes ate that up.

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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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There’s a link within the original link I posted above. About 3/4 down the page.

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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I agree, and even Enve's own data shows the 7.8 as faster than the new 6.7 at higher speeds. I understand the desire to minimize SKUs, but the 7.8s seemed pretty popular (I had a rim brake pair until I made the move to disc and they were great) and getting rid of your "fastest" wheelset option seems an odd choice.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Velonews says that there is a Enve 8.9 wheelset upcoming. Don’t know how reliable as a source they Are though. https://www.velonews.com/...-rims-and-wheelsets/[/url]
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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I updated the OP with the aero charts

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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
In the Rule of 105 thread a few weeks back the main takeaway is most hookless wheels aren’t optimized for both minimum tire size and 105% run width. This along with Zipps and updated Hunts should giveaway few options for hookless wheels that do it all.

My takeway from that thread was that most people are wanting and most mfg's are recommending a wider tire for comfort and stability. Aero and speed seem to be less of a priority on all the recent hookless wheels released but that's likely because the wheels are mostly for road and gravel use. Hence why people are running 28 or 30 mm tires on a zipp 454. But if you want to optimize aero and going for every last second, you probably should be running a 25 mm tire on that wheel.

Now is that hookless 454 on a 25 mm tire faster than its predecessor (hooked 454) with the appropriately sized tire (23mm)? That remains to be seen.

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Last edited by: stevej: May 27, 22 5:10
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [BenjiChr] [ In reply to ]
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BenjiChr wrote:
Velonews says that there is a Enve 8.9 wheelset upcoming. Don’t know how reliable as a source they Are though. https://www.velonews.com/...-rims-and-wheelsets/[/url]

That article is quite old and refers to the original 6.7s and not the new 6.7s. And Enve did introduce the 8.9 wheelset, but they’ve since been discontinued.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I updated the OP with the aero charts
Now this is my kind of post! Thank you!

IN SEARCH OF APP DEVELOPER. DM me. Equity on table.
Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [BenjiChr] [ In reply to ]
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BenjiChr wrote:
Velonews says that there is a Enve 8.9 wheelset upcoming. Don’t know how reliable as a source they Are though. https://www.velonews.com/...-rims-and-wheelsets/[/url]

That's a really old article

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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
In the Rule of 105 thread a few weeks back the main takeaway is most hookless wheels aren’t optimized for both minimum tire size and 105% run width. This along with Zipps and updated Hunts should giveaway few options for hookless wheels that do it all.

my writeup of these wheels is on our front page. i measure the front wheel and rear wheels at 30.7 and 29.7 respectively, outside rim diameter, and the 27mm ENVE tire mounted on their measures at 28.2mm. so, we're at 105% and 108%. i think this wheel pretty much obeys rule of 105 up through 28mm tires. i find that zipp likewise does fine at this, and that's because their inner bead widths are 23mm and 25mm for all their wheels. this means their outer widths are quite. wide. i've got most of these wheels on my workshop and can measure if you have a question.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Enve's own data shows the 7.8 as faster than the new 6.7 at higher speeds.

i might need to take a closer look, but what i saw were comparisons on 2 bikes, and at 2 speeds. on 2 bike, the wheels were almost identical. on the other bike, the only area where the 7.8 really outshone the 6.7 is a 15° yaw. my takeaway was that this yaw is likely to be experienced either as a constant sidewind, with a lot of stalling going on when using a deeper wheel, or you'd see it in a gust of wind from the side, and that's also not a fun experience. so, i'm not sure how much value it is to have that 7.8 outperform the 6.7 if you're crapping your pants trying to handle bike at the one condition where the 7.8 wins. and even then, that better performance was exhibited on the ENVE custom road, but not on the tarmac.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i might need to take a closer look, but what i saw were comparisons on 2 bikes, and at 2 speeds. on 2 bike, the wheels were almost identical. on the other bike, the only area where the 7.8 really outshone the 6.7 is a 15° yaw. my takeaway was that this yaw is likely to be experienced either as a constant sidewind, with a lot of stalling going on when using a deeper wheel, or you'd see it in a gust of wind from the side, and that's also not a fun experience. so, i'm not sure how much value it is to have that 7.8 outperform the 6.7 if you're crapping your pants trying to handle bike at the one condition where the 7.8 wins. and even then, that better performance was exhibited on the ENVE custom road, but not on the tarmac.

I think you're focusing on the 20mph chart. I was focusing on the 30mph chart, which seems to indicate that as speed increases, so does the advantage over the 6.7 The data also seem to suggest that the DT ARC 1100 wheels are fast, especially at speed and low yaw angles.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i might need to take a closer look, but what i saw were comparisons on 2 bikes, and at 2 speeds. on 2 bike, the wheels were almost identical. on the other bike, the only area where the 7.8 really outshone the 6.7 is a 15° yaw. my takeaway was that this yaw is likely to be experienced either as a constant sidewind, with a lot of stalling going on when using a deeper wheel, or you'd see it in a gust of wind from the side, and that's also not a fun experience. so, i'm not sure how much value it is to have that 7.8 outperform the 6.7 if you're crapping your pants trying to handle bike at the one condition where the 7.8 wins. and even then, that better performance was exhibited on the ENVE custom road, but not on the tarmac.


I think you're focusing on the 20mph chart. I was focusing on the 30mph chart, which seems to indicate that as speed increases, so does the advantage over the 6.7 The data also seem to suggest that the DT ARC 1100 wheels are fast, especially at speed and low yaw angles.

here are the two 30mph charts:





the difference between these 2 charts is the bike that acted as the test mule for each of these wheelsets. when all the wheels were on the tarmac, it seems to me that the 6.7 and the 7.8 were pretty close. the only real divergence between the performance of these wheels at 30mph was when they were put on the ENVE custom road bike, and then only at 15° of yaw. is that what you see? or do you think i'm reading the charts wrong?

then i have to ask myself how often i see 15° and what is going on when i see 15°. because, if i've shat my drawers when that sidewind hits me and almost puts me on the ground, that speed value is of questionable import. one thing that i have been asking for, for more than 20 years, and i've never gotten, from anybody who performs wind tunnel testing, is what kind of torque is applied to the fixture at various yaws. nobody actually tests handling, and i think you could do that. i'm dumber than a sack of hammers, and i can even think if a protocol for that.

so, this the question to me. what wheel is really the fastest between the 7.8 and the 6.7, and i don't think that's a straight-up slam-dunk easy-to-answer question until you factor in handling. if it was reversed, and the wheels tested the same at 15 and 10°, but the 7.8 kicked the spit out of the 6.7 at 0 to 5°, then yeah, point taken for sure.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Admittedly, I sought to "cut to the chase" and was focusing on this chart, but I suppose it would be helpful to understand how Enve arrived at its "weighted average" calculation. I chose to focus on the SL7 chart because it's the most "aero" bike they tested and my "least aero" bike is a current gen SuperSix EVO (so the same "style" of bike as the SL7), and then in my case we get more aero from there with a SystemSix and the TT bike. I'd be curious to see how these wheels test in something more aero than an SL7, e.g. a P5D. Between the lack of testing/data on a TT bike, and the depths of these wheels, it doesn't seem like Enve is really targeting the tri/TT crowd with these wheels, but maybe they are in the sense of offering wheels that won't spook beginner and intermediate riders with their relatively shallow depths.



Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Last edited by: refthimos: May 27, 22 16:07
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Admittedly, I sought to "cut to the chase" and was focusing on this chart, but I suppose it would be helpful to understand how Enve arrived at its "weighted average" calculation. I chose to focus on the SL7 chart because it's the most "aero" bike they tested and my "least aero" bike is a current gen SuperSix EVO (so the same "style" of bike as the SL7), and then in my case we get more aero from there with a SystemSix and the TT bike. I'd be curious to see how these wheels test in something more aero than an SL7, e.g. a P5D. Between the lack of testing/data on a TT bike, and the depths of these wheels, it doesn't seem like Enve is really targeting the tri/TT crowd with these wheels, but maybe they are in the sense of offering wheels that won't spook beginner and intermediate riders with their relatively shallow depths.

yeah, i wondered who they were targeting with these wheels. but they did specifically reach out to me because they felt these wheels were important to the triathlon community and our readers in particular. on the other hand, they used road bikes when testing these wheels. on the other other hand, if you're going to be doing testing on a whole suite of wheels, all road race wheels except these, probably easiest to bring road bikes since more of the wheels are road wheels.

beyond that, i would just not road ride with wheels this deep. sorry. life's too short. if i'm road racing in a peloton, in close quarters, i'm not on these wheels. so, if these are for the road racing community, i don't know how many folks will buy them. that's a mighty deep set of wheels for that crowd. but what say you? i'm not the god of wheels. maybe i missed the memo.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is that Enve will sell plenty of these wheels to your readers and to other triathletes. 60mm is plenty deep for the most triathletes I would think, esp whose who feel like they get blown around with a deeper wheel.

Enve seem to admit that deeper rim sections are indeed faster, but they argue that the additional weight offset the small aero gains. I think most of us here would take the aero gains despite a few more grams in the rim, but I think that the "real world" advantage for most riders is the increased confidence they'll have with a shallower wheel

From Enve website: "Once a rim goes beyond the 70mm depth, aero efficiency rapidly tapers off and the additional weight quickly begins to neutralize the marginal aero gains that the deeper rim provides. These are the learnings from more than a decade pursuing the ultimate Real-World Fast aero wheelset."

Personally I found the 7.8s to handle wind just fine - then again, here in SoCal while we get some wind from time to time, it's not typically too bad.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: May 27, 22 17:18
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Did they say what hunt aerodynamicists were used for the test 73/87 vs62. How does the 454 wheel have significantly worst aerodynamics( per chart) than the 354? Interesting results from the other brands makes you question their results. But it may be that the tire is as important as the wheel it goes to.
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
The data also seem to suggest that the DT ARC 1100 wheels are fast, especially at speed and low yaw angles.

yes, which is particularly interesting given that they are only 27mm wide and with a 20mm internal width the 27mm tyres will vastly exceed the rule of 105
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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I wish they would test each wheel in its own optimized set up. Basically, follow the rule of 105%. My guess is that some of the slightly narrower wheels with a 25c tire installed would bump up the ranking. And there use of their own tire is dumb. I’m also curious as to why they didn’t include the Zipp 404FC, 303FC in the test results. They are a couple hundred bucks cheaper and might even be faster.
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Re: Enve SES goes hookless - Minus the 7.8 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Probably a stupid question: Can you use a tube with tubeless tires on hookless rims?

In other words, if you get a puncture in the tubeless tire, can you throw in a tube to get home or finish the race?
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