I've seen EN coaches posting on this forum, so they can answer better than I can, but their long course training manual ("The Book") is available free online. The little bit they say about it is:
ROI = return on investment.

Terry - I am a member of the endurance nation community and giving their "Out season" plan a shot.

I disagree with their stance on swimming (for me), but I am a fast swimmer and enjoy swimming for the sake of swimming.

Their approach is based on that generally most people with very little swimming work can get to pretty close to the hour mark in an IM with minimal effort - which I concur; my brother-in-law went from being unable to know how to swim, to ~1:10 in with minimal training.

They contend that a person like my brother-in-law will be better served by taking those 2-3 hours/week in the offseason and putting it on the bike and or run, and getting a 30-40 minute culmative return, versus the minute to 2 minutes it might gain you in the water - and that to get an equal 30-40 minute return on swimming isn't worth it until you have wrung all that you can out of your bike and run.

For someone that is a 1:00-1:10 swimmer, but a 6:30 and 4:15 IM runner, I think this approach makes perfect sense.

OMG !!!! So this is true.

Maybe, they should contact the USAT and say that swimming in general is a bad ROI and all triathlons s/b duathlons. When you consider the liability, cost renting lake, death rate, etc from open water swimming. Heck with this kind coaching, they'd better increase the swim cut off in IM's.

Terry Harth
Tri Store Owner/Elite Triathlete
Triathlon World
Triathlonworldusa.com

Given the way their program is setup, that is probably a true statement.

Rich's endurance nation program is sent out to many people all over the US or the world I guess. So Rich doesn't see the person actually swimming. Given that situation, then the time is probably better spent on another sport.

That makes a couple of assumptions,
1. That "most" people in his program are hard gainers when it comes to swim speed. They can swim a lot but only get a hair faster. For many many triathletes this is probably true, without much history in the sport, without much kinesthesia or proprioception they can pile on the yards and not get much faster.
2. The person either does not have swim instruction which works for them available. This can mean there are no programs in the area, can mean there is a program but they don't get on with the coach, or the program has not helped that person in previous tries.

There are a number of people around for whom this is true, there are others for whom it is not. Rich obviously thinks that this situation is more or less true for most of the people using his program. For me, this is not true at all, with about 8 weeks of serious swim training I get faster in a hurry, so that particular rule of thumb may not be the best for me.

I'd also like to throw in the idea of enjoyment. Not everyone is motivated enough to go and put in the big yards in the pool when they don't particularly enjoy it. Yes, we all know the idea is to train your weaknesses, but hey everyone has their limit. There's only so much biking I can take in my life. And I reckon for a lot of triathletes they feel the same way about swimming. They could do it, but they would tire of it quickly.

I coach in person swim sessions, for people who live near me who i can watch swim I would make a different decision than Rich RE winter swim yards. But for people who i never see or who never see a swim coach then I would probably make a similar decision to the endurance nation guys.

It all goes back to the rather simple idea of analyzing your weaknesses and opportunities for improvement. If you are weak in one thing, it doesn't necessarily follow that you have the means to fix it.

Please remember they are only advising this for the off season, they do reccomend you swim during the build up to your races. - they are not advising people to show up ill prepared for races.

In gordo terms, they simply try to get people to understand that 3 extra hours a week on the bike 5 months of the year will yield more time off your overall time then those hours will investing them in swimming for the same 5 months.

EN is also very focused - IMO - on encouraging holistic training that jives with family life and work and all those pointless things. ;)

Unlike bike or run, if you have decent swim technique it does not take very long to get back to swim shape. If you have poor swim technique, you can swim all winter and still suck.

Scott,

You swam a 0:52 at IMWI this year, great swim by the way and kudos to the great finish too overall. Maybe, now I'll be able to beat you on the swim?

The problem that I have with that approach is that it seems very simplistic. Is the guy who swims 1:20 really only losing 20 minutes over the whole day to the guy who swims 1:00? Or is there an added fatigue factor coming out of the water which means that over the course of the bike and run, the 1:00 swimmer is going to be a lot fresher and able to bike/run faster because they cruised through a 1:00 swim, while for the 1:20 guy it was a struggle and extremely tiring?

For me, as a relative newbie, I just couldn't get with the idea that I should put a big gap into what's been a pretty consistent multi-year swimming plan. I want to get to the point where I'm actually a 'fast' swimmer (from a triathlon standpoint) - for me, it doesn't make sense to stop swimming entirely for a matter of months and then have to play catch-up to get back to where I was. I want to keep building the continuous gains I've made in the pool over the past two years.

I couldn't see any discussions on the EN forums that really dealt with these two issues. Besides, it just seems like such an IM-centric view - maybe if IM is all you do it's more justifiable.

Whoa, you just called me out ;)

I agree, in principle, with this, however, the reality is if I didn't swim three times a week I'm not sure if I would substitute that workout with biking or running, which over the winter, would mean biking or running at 05:00am in the morning, in the dark, in the cold, maybe snow, etc. At least the pool offers a controlled climate over the winter months.

Most triathlete have bad technique on the swim. So let me get this right, their thought is, heck you suck at swimming so why learn how to swim right and faster just scrap it and bike and run. So IM times will be 2:00 hours swimming, 5:30 on the bike and 3:30 on the run. That's 11 hours or so, not bad. Maybe, other pros will do the same and get faster?.... don't think so.

So lets not coach swimming, just tell them they suck and move on. Is that right?

thanks.

Don't worry I'm still swimming though!

Yes, it's true. We encourage our team to look at the return on investment (ROI) on race day for every minute spent training. We feel the ROI of swim time is extremely low in the off-season and can come at a high mental cost. We work to keep our athletes training volume as low as we can for as long as we can. Not swimming in the off-season is one of the tools we use and is especially powerful when you consider that admin and logistics time that surrounds swimming.

If you want to read more, please review the comments of our members as they discuss this approach: Why We Don't Swim in the Out Season--Let's Create a Hall of Fame Thread

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

I swim sub 20, about an 59 on the bike and a 36ish run, course and weather depending. If I stopped swimming in the off-season that 20 minute swim would be north of 26 minutes. Tell me, where could I pick up 6-7 minutes on the bike and run? That extra 5 hours not spent swimming per week would not translate to 6-7 minutes off my run or bike time. Give me a break.

Terry,
You are getting pretty half-assed answers here. If you really want to find out what Rich and Patrick mean by "no off season swimming" then you should go to their site and read what they have written. Rich put a link in his post.

I'm happy to throw this half assed answer out though: They aren't talking about you (Mr. 20 / 59 / 36 Oly) when they say not to swim.

Mike

Reply to:
"We work to keep our athletes training volume as low as we can for as long as we can. Not swimming in the off-season is one of the tools we use"

Well, good luck with that......

Personally, based on what you said, I don't think your program is teaching triathlete's correctly. Why not just say you suck at swimming so don't bother getting better just do the bike and run.

Kind of like a teacher in school that says to a student, "You suck at math so just get the F grade in it and concentrate on your other studies, it's a better ROI."

Or the Drill Sergant that says to the soldier, "You suck at shooting the M16 so just forget it, your a Medic anyhow, it's a better ROI for us".

Maybe, this can work in politics too. Hey Obama......

Come on Terry, do you really think their plans are intended for Professionals/Elites?

It seems interesting but going from 1:20 to 1:00 is 20 minutes and that's a decent amount of time, IMHO. If you can easily swim under 70, I see no reason to spend anything but maintenance if you have a slow run or bike.

[/reply] Yes, it's true. We encourage our team to look at the return on investment (ROI) on race day for every minute spent training. We feel the ROI of swim time is extremely low in the off-season and can come at a high mental cost. We work to keep our athletes training volume as low as we can for as long as we can. Not swimming in the off-season is one of the tools we use and is especially powerful when you consider that admin and logistics time that surrounds swimming.

If you want to read more, please review the comments of our members as they discuss this approach: Why We Don't Swim in the Out Season--Let's Create a Hall of Fame Thread

-------------[/reply] wow, talk about selling the the "one size fits all" cool aid...

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

"So lets not coach swimming, just tell them they suck and move on. Is that right? "

No, it seems that you are deliberately mis-understanding what ROI means.

I will use myself as an example since I followed one of Rich's plans. In a HIM, my splits before following their plan were:

34:22/2:42/1:23 for a 4:45 (Mooseman-06)

I didn't swim from Sep until February, did a whole lot of running and 2-3 1 hr bike trainer sessions all winter, and then in March followed Rich's program, which ended up being roughly 4-5 hrs week run, 5-6 hrs/week bike, 3 hrs/week swim.

My splits were:
33:47/2:31/1:21 for a 4:30 (Mooseman-07)

So, took 14 minutes off the run/bike, and :45 seconds off the swim.

For the people who say that the swimmers use less energy on the swim and so are better prepared for the rest of the day, LOL! You have not seen suffering until you have seen a swimmer stagger along on the run course with their big broad shoulders and duck feet. Congrats to them on their 20K yds/week swimming and 3 runs/week.

"I swim sub 20, about an 59 on the bike and a 36ish run, course and weather depending. If I stopped swimming in the off-season that 20 minute swim would be north of 26 minutes."

If you took 4 months off from swimming, and then started back up and trained as you had before for 4 months, you would not be 6 minutes slower.

I'm shocked that you misinterpreted what I was saying that badly.

I don't know where the 'sweet spot' is for swimming in an IM training plan, I'm sure it's NOT 20K yds/week and totally neglecting the other 2 sports.

I just don't think it's the other extreme (NO swimming for 3-5 months of the year) either.

I think i prefered the... "hey guys, rally round they're being nasty to us on Slowtwitch thread"

http://www.endurancenation.us/...howthread.php?t=4309

I guess I hurt their (EN's) feelings..... sorry. Keep up the good work, hope you make a lot of money doing it. I guess that's what it's all out now.