This won't end any debate, just as the last 1000 threads about this haven't. Lol

Some will tell you hookless is better because in some theoretical world it is cheaper and/or stronger and/or more aero because of the transition.

Others will tell you the theoretical extra strength is either not real or not necessary (when was the last time you broke a wheel), the cost isn't passed on (there are $150 hooked carbon wheels so hooks aren't making the cost difference between a $2500 wheel and $1500 wheel), and it hurts aero because it forces tires to balloon past 105% unless you undersize the tires (even 25mm tires will blow up to the 27mm ext width of a new Zipp if the internal width is 23mm).

Given that narrower tires at higher pressures are faster on smooth tarmac, it seems silly to limit yourself to 70psi for a TT/tri bike unless you know all of your races will be on crap surfaces.

In addition to the above, I won't personally go for hookless because hooks are an additional safety feature in case of a blowout.

In practice, I just don't see any tangible benefit of hookless for the consumer in the current landscape of products.

This won't end any debate, just as the last 1000 threads about this haven't. Lol

Some will tell you hookless is better because in some theoretical world it is cheaper and/or stronger and/or more aero because of the transition.

Others will tell you the theoretical extra strength is either not real or not necessary (when was the last time you broke a wheel), the cost isn't passed on (there are $150 hooked carbon wheels so hooks aren't making the cost difference between a $2500 wheel and $1500 wheel), and it hurts aero because it forces tires to balloon past 105% unless you undersize the tires (even 25mm tires will blow up to the 27mm ext width of a new Zipp if the internal width is 23mm).

Given that narrower tires at higher pressures are faster on smooth tarmac, it seems silly to limit yourself to 70psi for a TT/tri bike unless you know all of your races will be on crap surfaces.

In addition to the above, I won't personally go for hookless because hooks are an additional safety feature in case of a blowout.

In practice, I just don't see any tangible benefit of hookless for the consumer in the current landscape of products.

I won't personally go for hookless because hooks are an additional safety feature in case of a blowout.

(when was the last time you broke a wheel)

presumably because it saves them some cost

Even at 220 pounds on a 25mm tire I’m not at 90

To be fair, it probably saves us some cost to. E.g., the current generation of 303FC is significantly cheaper than the last.

What's the logic here?

When 23c was the standard, I ran 110 psi

I figured 90 psi runnng inner tubes was ok. So far, it’s been fine.

Not a mech-e, but I think it has to do with it simply being a simpler shape. Making a strong hook with thin thickness is a bit complicated. Making a thicker "wall" is easier.

Per your Lightbicycle crew: "Higher manufacturing efficiency. Hookless rims are easier to produce than hook rims as hooks require a complex 3-piece mold.."

(They also point out disadvantages to hookless, just cherry picked that since we were talking about cost specifically).

I don't have any hookless rims yet, no dog in fight. Just pointing out they do seem to be cheaper to make, which ultimately means they should be cheaper to boy.

Hookless seems to be what most manufacturers are doing and tubeless. Manufacturers like zipp and Enve are stating max pressures of 70 psi

Am I behind the times?

I was expecting to run 25-28c tires with tubes and 90 psi.

Not in my humble opinion - not in the real world. Show me ONE Time Trial, or bike leg of a Tri, that was won riding tires wider than 25mm @ 70 psi (or less).

W/r to tire width, Sebastian Kienle rode 28mm tires on the new Zipp 858 23mm internal rim width hookless rim to the 4th fastest bike split in this year’s IMWC. No he didn’t win the bike leg, but he’s near retirement and has always been respected for his bike gear knowledge. He runs what’s fastest and if 28 didn’t work for him I’m sure Zipp and Schwalbe would provide gear to his desired specs.

Fanella was also on the super-wide Parcours rims that are supposed to be optimized for 28mm tires to the 6th fastest bike split. I haven’t seen the tire width she used confirmed.

Both of these pros finished 6th at Kona. Not winning, but in the mix.

I'm at over 110 psi at 25c at 145 pounds XD. I absolutely loathe pinch flats, and for the most part, can tolerate the harsh ride

I think you’re splitting hairs on the width and pressure agreement, but I will defer to letting time answer this debate. I’ve been around cycling my entire life and have watched the tire widths continue to increase. A few years ago expertswould be using your arguments as a reason that 25mm tires were not aero and would never surpass 23mm tires. Before that it was 19 and 20mm versus 23mm. This is of course only the clincher progression. Tubulars were the holy grail and when rolling resistance tests started coming out on a consistent basis and across manufacturers. There were all kinds of cyclists butt hurt to find things like tubular gluing technique, latex tubes and wider 23mm tires rolled better than what expertsanecdotally thought were the best. The most memorable was the Conti GP4000 S II that rolled better than most every other tire at the time and was almost as aero as the narrowest tires that lost any advantage when aero was combined with rolling resistance. Before this no one could convince narrow tire advocates of the advantage of a wider tire and lower pressure. This happened at all levels. Look no further than Josh Poertner’s experience at Zipp working with UCI World Tour teams and riders trying to convince them about wheel and tire improvements and tire pressure breakpoint performance.

I don’t think the penalty for 28’s is too high at all. For Bingham and Ganna riding the hour records on the track, sure the high pressure, beyond ERTRO standards might happen. But for any rider on real world roads the 28’s are generally going to be beneficial.

Your emphasis on winning is also splitting hairs. Kienle is a former IMWC and rode near the front with the best in the world in his retirement year. He isn’t paying any penalty riding this tire/wheel combo. The Kona course surfaces may not have rewarded him, as most of it outside of Kona town is pretty smooth, but there are many courses where his setup would provide a distinct advantage. If you can run this kind of combo anywhere why not? The current lack of deep wheels designed for 28mm tire performance is likely the only reason they have not been more widely adapted for Tri/TT.

High quality carbon rims with hooks start at $150.

I think you’re splitting hairs on the width and pressure agreement, but I will defer to letting time answer this debate.

Hookless seems to be what most manufacturers are doing and tubeless.