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Efficiency & Rolling Resistance
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As far as rolling resistance, I understand that most of the Crr values posted tend to be from roller tests. Some people run their own tests in controlled outdoor tests, but that is less public or reliable.

Ultimately, I think an important aspect of rolling resistance has been neglected: energy lost due to vibration.

While roller tests can provide a good understanding of how a tire itself loses energy under the stresses of rolling motion, there is a larger component of energy loss that is the kinetic energy that is transferred to the bicycle and rider. So instead of the energy summation being that of tire deformation losses and aerodynamic losses, there's an additional cost of unnecessary accelerations. I believe this is what causes the "runaway" Crr values when high tire pressures are tested in real-world conditions.

Since the vertical compliance of most road tires is limited ( I personally get pinch-flats too often if I start a ride at less than 110psi), I would think that a road bike or TT bike with damped axle mounts would be more efficient in real world conditions. By this, I don't mean the gimmicky systems some manufacturers introduce to provide "vertical compliance," because those still transfer energy to the frame and rider and are not likely to significantly reduce a metric like Grms (https://femci.gsfc.nasa.gov/random/randomgrms.html).

Another related thought to real-world testing: There should be a real-time function that divides N-second-avg-power by speed. Convergence can be checked in real-time rather easily and say, turn "green". Real-world testing could then proceed with A-B-A-B... testing, where repeated runs could be checked to see if the baseline efficiency has changed. A change in constant wind or slope would cause a "pure" shift in efficiency, while gusts or road quality variance would cause a change in variance in the data (also affecting time or samples to convergence). The real-time tests can then be examined later with more confidence using Aerolab or similar, to extract Crr or CdA values. Using variance (in particular within regions where one does not expect variance) or tests for shifts in data could also be used to correct traditional methods.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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Not neglected, no. This is a major component of the movement to lower tire pressures, especially as the road surface degrades (imparting more vibration into the bike/rider system). Josh @slica has talked about this extensively.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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To save a search, here's the Silca article with graphs to show the inflection point of impedance losses when transferring from roller => real world.

https://blog.silca.cc/...stance-and-impedance

HOWEVER, unless I am mistaken, I read the OP's point two different ways:

1. Energy lost from tire deformation due to system vibrations in steady state (captured in link above)

2. Energy lost from tire deformation when the bike is accelerating, aka the tire is under heavy load

Not sure of there is research on (2), or if the physics of (2)'s situation is already captured by (1).
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [breakfast4lunch] [ In reply to ]
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While Crr or the coefficient of rolling resistance is inherent to the internal losses within the tire, impedance is an energy sucking force felt through your whole body. Previously called 'Suspension Losses' or 'Transmitted Losses' this effect occurs when the tires are unable to do their job properly due to over-inflation, small size, or being ridden on unintended surfaces.
(https://blog.silca.cc/part-4b-rolling-resistance-and-impedance)

This statement is similar to what I am discussing, and I had seen the data he presented posted on Slowtwitch some time ago, so I understand that tire pressure tuning is old news for tire nerds.

However, the point I'm bringing up is that even though people understand that there is a "sweet spot" of tire pressure for a given rider weight, there have been no engineered efforts to improve the efficiency.

There are two premises here:
  • Pure load vs Crr testing on rollers predicts decreasing Crr as psi rises.
  • Real-world vibrations cause a deviation from this trend derived on smooth rollers

So, it is silly that the conclusion is to reduce tire pressures. It is only a "solution" because it must be; i.e. we have no other way of damping road vibrations without sacrificing tire deformation losses.

Ideally, road bikes would have a simple suspension with more efficient damping, so we can (at least partially) decouple tire deformation efficiency from "suspension losses." Right now this isn't possible.

Additionally, even though people may "understand" that these losses are due to transferred energy, I've not seen anyone attempt to capture the "suspension losses," say by measuring Grms on a rider or bike frame as a function of tire pressure and recording system efficiency.

A more nuanced interpretation of tire data, may be expressed as:
  • A tire's intrinsic losses are captured in roller tests - i.e. higher pressures mean less deformation and less losses, full stop.
  • Any deviation from this curve is not due to the carcass response to imperfections, because "smooth" rolling is fundamentally transient. A "rolling" action is essentially a travelling "impulse" as previously undeformed material enters and leaves the contact patch, and road imperfections are not likely a cause for a fundamentally different form of "intrinsic" energy loss. This is not true for something like road vehicles, (read for "critical speeds" where carcass dynamics change).

with the conclusion being:
  • Since tires are currently the only form of suspension on road bikes, tire size and pressure are the only "tunable" parameters to improve efficiency.
  • These parameters are not sufficient to reach the best efficiencies we are capable of engineering, particularly as road roughness and rider mass exceeds some thresholds which result in pinch flats or excessive system vibrations.

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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
[
So, it is silly that the conclusion is to reduce tire pressures. It is only a "solution" because it must be; i.e. we have no other way of damping road vibrations without sacrificing tire deformation losses.

Ideally, road bikes would have a simple suspension with more efficient damping, so we can (at least partially) decouple tire deformation efficiency from "suspension losses." Right now this isn't possible


You seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.

I don't think you can assume that tire dampening of vibration is somehow not efficient, or that it could be done more efficiently elsewhere. That may be possible, but you'd have to find some experimental way to prove that. You might be right. But it could also end up being that tires-as-dampeners is a really great way of doing it.

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Since tires are currently the only form of suspension on road bikes


That's not true. Bike frames are designed to flex. And, more recently, good bikes are specifically tuned as springs to have specific spring properties for different parts of the bike, e.g. fork vs. seat-stay. This tuning is generally for comfort rather than efficiency....but those two may be the same thing.

That's ignoring the more recent addition of explicit road suspension elements by Pinarello, Trek, Specialized, and others.
Last edited by: trail: Oct 7, 20 17:10
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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1. Pneumatic tires turn out to be pretty damn efficient springs.

2. Suppose you have two tires, A and B. You test them at the same pressure on the same surface at the same speed and find that Crr(A) < Crr(B). Here's an important question: is that true for all pressures, surfaces, and speeds or are there some combinations where Crr(A) > Crr(B)? If not, then testing on a smooth roller is a good predictor of the relative ranking on other surfaces. If so, then what are the conditions?
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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The closest thing to road bike dampening systems I can think of, without going full K8-S, is the Time Aktiv forks. My understanding is these are UCI illegal, which leads me to wonder if perhaps the reason why there has been little innovation of additional dampening systems for road bikes is partially due to regulations...
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [trail] [ In reply to ]
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The premise does not rely on the notion that pneumatic damping (dampening is related to moisture) is one way or another completely inefficient— but that the maximum displacement is the sidewall height, and that alone makes tires not ideal as the sole vibration isolation mechanism.

Regarding structural designs, again, they are all marketed as comfort aids (of questionable validity, since frame vertical compliance is << tire compliance), but a design that truly aims for vibration isolation would restrict movements to the tire/wheel systems and minimize pitch and heave disturbances of the rider+frame center of mass.

I agree that UCI rules may be a factor, but rules are made to be bent, and a simple cantilevered beam acting as a spring or bushing mounted axles, or merely an analogue of an innertube at the axle interface could double or triple the available vertical displacement without risking pinch flats.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
Ultimately, I think an important aspect of rolling resistance has been neglected: energy lost due to vibration.

Common knowledge since at least 2008...

Just damn hard to normalize it. So we do smooth surface and add a factor for rough.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
1. Pneumatic tires turn out to be pretty damn efficient springs.

2. Suppose you have two tires, A and B. You test them at the same pressure on the same surface at the same speed and find that Crr(A) < Crr(B). Here's an important question: is that true for all pressures, surfaces, and speeds or are there some combinations where Crr(A) > Crr(B)? If not, then testing on a smooth roller is a good predictor of the relative ranking on other surfaces. If so, then what are the conditions?

I agree on both counts, and conjecture that Crr relationships are consistent across dynamics unless someone quantifies wave dynamics in road bike carcasses , which do exist in high speed road vehicle tire theory, but I doubt are significant in bicycling speeds and carcass stiffnesses.

But, what I am suggesting is that merely finding the pressure at which a given rider mass and road surface minimizes rolling resistance is far too constrained by tire aerodynamics limiting tire size, and the fairly limited sidewall heights that this constraint imposes, leading to inadequate compliance on many roads. So decoupling these constraints should allow for a more efficient and comfortable system. More importantly, I just wanna have share this conversation :)

I’d also like to hear thoughts on the “real time” testing scheme i mentioned, for fun.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
codygo wrote:
Ultimately, I think an important aspect of rolling resistance has been neglected: energy lost due to vibration.

Common knowledge since at least 2008...

Just damn hard to normalize it. So we do smooth surface and add a factor for rough.

Thanks for jumping in.

I acknowledge that the community “knows” about these things in some of the above replies, but I stress the point that the inefficiency that follows is inherently extrinsic to the tires, because the “cost” is a function of how much mass is vibrated -is the rider off the saddle? loaded with water bottles? fairly lean or erm less rigid?

I would bet that this cost varies significantly if the rider is actively off saddle and absorbing vibrations with limbs versus passively absorbing bumps with lots of weight on the saddle.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [breakfast4lunch] [ In reply to ]
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breakfast4lunch wrote:
The closest thing to road bike dampening systems I can think of, without going full K8-S, is the Time Aktiv forks. My understanding is these are UCI illegal, which leads me to wonder if perhaps the reason why there has been little innovation of additional dampening systems for road bikes is partially due to regulations...

Those are cool references I was not aware of. I like the K8-S effort and wonder why they seemed to omit suspension on the front axle. The Time Aktiv forks are interesting in concept, but it seems that they only reduce transmission of high frequency - low amplitude vibrations, and cannot possibly substitute for a lack of vertical compliance in the tires.

Still, it would be fun if someone recorded vibration data with and without such systems active, on the same roads, tracking rider CoM or bike frame vibrations at the head tube and seat tubes.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
Since the vertical compliance of most road tires is limited ( I personally get pinch-flats too often if I start a ride at less than 110psi)

I'm curious how much you weight as pinch flats are pretty rare unless you hit something square at high speed. It sounds like your tire size is inappropriate for the roads you are riding as you aren't able to run a tire pressure that doesn't overwhelm the volume of the tire.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
I would bet that this cost varies significantly if the rider is actively off saddle and absorbing vibrations with limbs versus passively absorbing bumps with lots of weight on the saddle.

I bet you are right.

There was a lot of discussion about this around 12-15 years ago?... maybe more. On rec.bike.tech and then BikeTechReview. I think I broached the subject on vibration and energy dissipation in human bodies based on a military study.

You've probably seen Josh Poertner's excellent study of "Crr" vs tire inflation. AFAIK no one has published a study with regards to other variables. They did some interesting cobble stone studies when he was at Zipp, but it isn't public.

I'd think this would be particularly important in MTB.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Two of the biggest variables will end up being supple tires and rider body composition. Bad tires will have equal static stiffness values to good ones, but will have higher dynamic stiffness behavior due to the increased damping effects.. so high hysteresis tires will need a few PSI less to offset this, at least in theory.. we never let our athletes ride $hitty tires, so our data set here is limited as the solve the tire problem before working on tire breakpoint.. ;-)

The second issue is even more interesting, we know from military study and also from common sense that body makeup will affect the damping coefficient of the human, as will position, flexibility, tension of the rider, etc.. It is my thought that the SILCA tire pressure calculator likely over estimates pressure by a few psi for most people as our 4000+ data points are all with pro, or near pro level athletes who are generally lower body fat and higher muscle mass percentage than the rest of us.. therefore they are lower hysteresis individuals who have slightly higher break point pressures..

So while we don't have enough data to really drive some algorithm here, I can say: buy excellent tires and lose weight.. both are clearly directional optimizations.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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So, reviving this older thread because the topic has been discussed a bit in related threads, like Rolling resistance - I'm confused now.

But also, I recently became aware of Runscribe which has an API for developers I think it should be fairly "easy" to implement something of a modification to the traditional (Martin et. al) bike power formula:

Quote:

Pnet = Paero + Prolling + Pmech + Pgravity + Pkinetic


with another term or terms,
Pvibration = K*mass*Vrms*Grms, which could be separate for bike and rider.


The idea being that one could use the IMU from Runscribe on your torso and the bike itself, and record the accelerations and velocity deviations from the mean bike velocity. This would distinguish vibration power losses from the relatively stable Crr of the tires.

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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
RChung wrote:
1. Pneumatic tires turn out to be pretty damn efficient springs.

2. Suppose you have two tires, A and B. You test them at the same pressure on the same surface at the same speed and find that Crr(A) < Crr(B). Here's an important question: is that true for all pressures, surfaces, and speeds or are there some combinations where Crr(A) > Crr(B)? If not, then testing on a smooth roller is a good predictor of the relative ranking on other surfaces. If so, then what are the conditions?


I agree on both counts, and conjecture that Crr relationships are consistent across dynamics unless someone quantifies wave dynamics in road bike carcasses , which do exist in high speed road vehicle tire theory, but I doubt are significant in bicycling speeds and carcass stiffnesses.

But, what I am suggesting is that merely finding the pressure at which a given rider mass and road surface minimizes rolling resistance is far too constrained by tire aerodynamics limiting tire size, and the fairly limited sidewall heights that this constraint imposes, leading to inadequate compliance on many roads. So decoupling these constraints should allow for a more efficient and comfortable system. More importantly, I just wanna have share this conversation :)

I’d also like to hear thoughts on the “real time” testing scheme i mentioned, for fun.


A few thoughts:

The main argument here as I understand it is that the spring/damper system inherent in a pneumatic tire is not ideally calibrated to be a suspension system for a road bike and the frequencies/amplitudes experienced during a road race.

Therefore it is suggested that adding a suspension system that is better tuned would further decrease rolling resistance vs. the state of the art in tire tech and pressure/Crr knowledge today.

However - to obtain this improvement in the tuning of the dampening, you would need:
1) to allow the mass of the entire wheel to move with the suspension system, decreasing it's effectiveness.
2) to add weight, frontal area, complexity and mechanical losses further decreasing it's overall system performance.
3) you would add cost to already absurdly expensive bikes.

Do you have any data showing that the dampening of a tire vs. ideal calibration of the dampening has a large enough negative effect to overcome these deficiencies of the "solution"? My gut tells me that the improvement obtained in Crr from impedence is not nearly high enough to make the "solution" beneficial.

Finally - bottoming out your tire and pinch-flatting is almost never a problem for road-racing tires when pressurized to the proper lowest point on the Crr curve when taking impedence into account, unless you are on VERY bumpy roads. Like cobbles in Paris-Roubaix or something. Or if you hit a massive pothole or something.

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www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Apr 26, 21 15:25
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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When you say hysteresis here, I assume we are talking about rate of compression/bending vs. rate of recovery?

And I believe that you are talking about the hysteresis of the tire first, but then later you say a low body fat rider is a low-hysteresis rider. In that case you are talking about the rate of deflection of the rider's body position and... er... tissues vs. rate of recovery?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
Two of the biggest variables will end up being supple tires and rider body composition. Bad tires will have equal static stiffness values to good ones, but will have higher dynamic stiffness behavior due to the increased damping effects.. so high hysteresis tires will need a few PSI less to offset this, at least in theory.. we never let our athletes ride $hitty tires, so our data set here is limited as the solve the tire problem before working on tire breakpoint.. ;-)

The second issue is even more interesting, we know from military study and also from common sense that body makeup will affect the damping coefficient of the human, as will position, flexibility, tension of the rider, etc.. It is my thought that the SILCA tire pressure calculator likely over estimates pressure by a few psi for most people as our 4000+ data points are all with pro, or near pro level athletes who are generally lower body fat and higher muscle mass percentage than the rest of us.. therefore they are lower hysteresis individuals who have slightly higher break point pressures..

So while we don't have enough data to really drive some algorithm here, I can say: buy excellent tires and lose weight.. both are clearly directional optimizations.

I would argue that once the energy makes it "past" the tire and into the rest of the system, it's too late for that energy to be effectively returned to the road surface (like it would be in the tire contact patch), so the "hysteresis" differences of the meat mass in the saddle isn't going to matter much in regards to "resistance to forward motion" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
joshatsilca wrote:
Two of the biggest variables will end up being supple tires and rider body composition. Bad tires will have equal static stiffness values to good ones, but will have higher dynamic stiffness behavior due to the increased damping effects.. so high hysteresis tires will need a few PSI less to offset this, at least in theory.. we never let our athletes ride $hitty tires, so our data set here is limited as the solve the tire problem before working on tire breakpoint.. ;-)

The second issue is even more interesting, we know from military study and also from common sense that body makeup will affect the damping coefficient of the human, as will position, flexibility, tension of the rider, etc.. It is my thought that the SILCA tire pressure calculator likely over estimates pressure by a few psi for most people as our 4000+ data points are all with pro, or near pro level athletes who are generally lower body fat and higher muscle mass percentage than the rest of us.. therefore they are lower hysteresis individuals who have slightly higher break point pressures..

So while we don't have enough data to really drive some algorithm here, I can say: buy excellent tires and lose weight.. both are clearly directional optimizations.


I would argue that once the energy makes it "past" the tire and into the rest of the system, it's too late for that energy to be effectively returned to the road surface (like it would be in the tire contact patch), so the "hysteresis" differences of the meat mass in the saddle isn't going to matter much in regards to "resistance to forward motion" ;-)

It certainly does resist forward motion, because the energy to vibrate it didn't come from nowhere, it comes from the rider's gravitational and kinetic energy. Consider it something of a marker for energy that is already lost, but is unaccounted for by any of the other terms. It has been crudely treated in the rolling resistance term, but it doesn't really belong there.

It may help to thinking about it as if a rider has velocity U = (u + du)i + (w + dw)k , and we generally only track u as mean bicycle velocity, and w as change in elevation w.r.t. time from instrumentation, but du and dw are the small changes in velocity due to vibrations. The power lost is proportional to mass*(da_x*du + da_z*dw) , so when you use equations that does not include this explicitly, power is leaving the system in a manner that cannot be accounted for by constant Crr.

What would you do with this information? You'd be able to quantify if increases in tire pressure increase your vibrational power losses, and your Chung analysis or any other analysis should then be able to account for changes in road quality, since you won't have to force-fit Crr to an artificially high constant.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
However - to obtain this improvement in the tuning of the dampening, you would need:
1) to allow the mass of the entire wheel to move with the suspension system, decreasing it's effectiveness.
2) to add weight, frontal area, complexity and mechanical losses further decreasing it's overall system performance.
3) you would add cost to already absurdly expensive bikes.

For point 1, consider that for rigid systems not just the wheel, but the entire rider and bike are bouncing instead of just "the entire wheel" lol. Properly designed suspension systems always improve traction, else they wouldn't exist.

The weight and all that other jazz are not a big deal for good designers, and I'm not to blame for expensive bikes :)

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Do you have any data showing that the damping of a tire vs. ideal calibration of the damping has a large enough negative effect to overcome these deficiencies of the "solution"? My gut tells me that the improvement obtained in Crr from impedance is not nearly high enough to make the "solution" beneficial.
I have no such data, nobody does, hence this thread. However, the "increases in Crr" due to vibration that are often conflated as a tire property are very much larger than many marginal gains people seek around here.

Quote:
Finally - bottoming out your tire and pinch-flatting is almost never a problem for road-racing tires when pressurized to the proper lowest point on the Crr curve when taking impedence into account, unless you are on VERY bumpy roads. Like cobbles in Paris-Roubaix or something. Or if you hit a massive pothole or something.

Yeah, it's never a problem until it is. For me it tends to be seams in roads, bike paths, cracks, etc. Should I just put 38mm gravel tires on and get on with life? I'd sooner un-slam my stem and ride upright with a nice cool helmet.
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
joshatsilca wrote:
Two of the biggest variables will end up being supple tires and rider body composition. Bad tires will have equal static stiffness values to good ones, but will have higher dynamic stiffness behavior due to the increased damping effects.. so high hysteresis tires will need a few PSI less to offset this, at least in theory.. we never let our athletes ride $hitty tires, so our data set here is limited as the solve the tire problem before working on tire breakpoint.. ;-)

The second issue is even more interesting, we know from military study and also from common sense that body makeup will affect the damping coefficient of the human, as will position, flexibility, tension of the rider, etc.. It is my thought that the SILCA tire pressure calculator likely over estimates pressure by a few psi for most people as our 4000+ data points are all with pro, or near pro level athletes who are generally lower body fat and higher muscle mass percentage than the rest of us.. therefore they are lower hysteresis individuals who have slightly higher break point pressures..

So while we don't have enough data to really drive some algorithm here, I can say: buy excellent tires and lose weight.. both are clearly directional optimizations.


I would argue that once the energy makes it "past" the tire and into the rest of the system, it's too late for that energy to be effectively returned to the road surface (like it would be in the tire contact patch), so the "hysteresis" differences of the meat mass in the saddle isn't going to matter much in regards to "resistance to forward motion" ;-)


It certainly does resist forward motion, because the energy to vibrate it didn't come from nowhere, it comes from the rider's gravitational and kinetic energy. Consider it something of a marker for energy that is already lost, but is unaccounted for by any of the other terms. It has been crudely treated in the rolling resistance term, but it doesn't really belong there.

It may help to thinking about it as if a rider has velocity U = (u + du)i + (w + dw)k , and we generally only track u as mean bicycle velocity, and w as change in elevation w.r.t. time from instrumentation, but du and dw are the small changes in velocity due to vibrations. The power lost is proportional to mass*(da_x*du + da_z*dw) , so when you use equations that does not include this explicitly, power is leaving the system in a manner that cannot be accounted for by constant Crr.

What would you do with this information? You'd be able to quantify if increases in tire pressure increase your vibrational power losses, and your Chung analysis or any other analysis should then be able to account for changes in road quality, since you won't have to force-fit Crr to an artificially high constant.


I'm not saying it doesn't resist forward motion, I'm saying that once the tire gets "too stiff" for the conditions (AKA, you're above the breakpoint pressure), the resistance to forward motion get so bad, so quickly, that differences in how well (or not) the rider's body absorbs the energy is moot. Like I said, if the energy can be absorbed, and nearly fully returned at the contact patch, that's going to be much better (in terms of the particulars of a bicycle) than if it makes it past the tire and into some sort of "suspension" on the bike, or in the rider. Only in the extremes of MTB'ing is that going to change, where the control afforded by the suspension is more important to overall speed than the energy being absorbed.

I like to think of this problem in terms of a classical "single-wheel" vehicular model, like the one shown in this paper: https://books.google.com/...tance%22&f=false ...edit: and the whole point is to minimize activation of the second set of "spring-mass-damper" of the 2 sets in series in the system (the first being the tire "spring-mass-damper").

That's a good one to get a copy of, if you can (I know that the google book preview leaves a couple of pages out) ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Apr 26, 21 16:51
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
I'm not saying it doesn't resist forward motion, I'm saying that once the tire gets "too stiff" for the conditions (AKA, you're above the breakpoint pressure), the resistance to forward motion get so bad, so quickly, that differences in how well (or not) the rider's body absorbs the energy is moot. Like I said, if the energy can be absorbed, and nearly fully returned at the contact patch, that's going to be much better (in terms of the particulars of a bicycle) than if it makes it past the tire and into some sort of "suspension" on the bike, or in the rider. Only in the extremes of MTB'ing is that going to change, where the control afforded by the suspension is more important to overall speed than the energy being absorbed.


I think that argument only holds if you consider one constant road condition. Sure, if we plan on a "rough road" with large volume tires with a certain magic tire pressure, it might not be necessary to add complications.

However, lets say that for some reason, there's an Ironman distance race where road quality changes, maybe 50% smooth new stuff and 50% chipseal with grass coming out of the cracks. Right now you'd be forced to ride whatever tires and pressures you could bear for the rough pavement, and you'd have to ride the rest with a less aero, heavier, and underinflated tire. If a bike had a modest suspension, you might be able to ride aero 20mm or 23mm tires inflated to smooth pavement conditions, and for the half the ride the suspension would not affect you. For the other half, a modest suspension providing say, 10-20mm of travel, would be enough to keep you from pinch flats, and would decrease power losses by isolating vibrations to wheel masses and not your frame and your body.
Last edited by: codygo: Apr 26, 21 17:05
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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codygo wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I'm not saying it doesn't resist forward motion, I'm saying that once the tire gets "too stiff" for the conditions (AKA, you're above the breakpoint pressure), the resistance to forward motion get so bad, so quickly, that differences in how well (or not) the rider's body absorbs the energy is moot. Like I said, if the energy can be absorbed, and nearly fully returned at the contact patch, that's going to be much better (in terms of the particulars of a bicycle) than if it makes it past the tire and into some sort of "suspension" on the bike, or in the rider. Only in the extremes of MTB'ing is that going to change, where the control afforded by the suspension is more important to overall speed than the energy being absorbed.


I think that argument only holds if you consider one constant road condition. Sure, if we plan on a "rough road" with large volume tires with a certain magic tire pressure, it might not be necessary to add complications.

However, lets say that for some reason, there's an Ironman distance race where road quality changes, maybe 50% smooth new stuff and 50% chipseal with grass coming out of the cracks. Right now you'd be forced to ride whatever tires and pressures you could bear for the rough pavement, and you'd have to ride the rest with a less aero, heavier, and underinflated tire. If a bike had a modest suspension, you might be able to ride aero 20mm or 23mm tires inflated to smooth pavement conditions, and for the half the ride the suspension would not affect you. For the other half, a modest suspension providing say, 10-20mm of travel, would be enough to keep you from pinch flats, and would decrease power losses by isolating vibrations to wheel masses and not your frame and your body.

For that course description, you'll be faster IMHO on the wider tires at lower pressures, despite the aero losses...they will be NOTHING in comparison to running "20mm or 23mm tires inflated to smooth pavement conditions" with or without a separate bicycle suspension, since by definition, the extra energy in the latter case will be dissipated in the dampers, with NO chance of the extra "input" being absorbed and nearly completely returned to the road surface, as in the former case. High performance tires have extremely low damping, mostly because the majority of the "tire suspension" is basically an air spring.

For that type of course you described, I'd throw some fast rolling 25s on there, drop the psi by an appropriate amount, and be done with it. Based on the shape of the Crr curves below breakpoint, you won't be giving up much with the lower pressure (if anything), and the aero losses will be minimal. If it still happens to be "beyond breakpoint" for a portion of the course, you'll be no slower than if you had the narrower tires pumped up hard and a separate suspension, and may actually be faster...all without adding as much mass (and complexity) to carry around as if you had a separate suspension element(s) on the bike.

But, maybe that's just me? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Efficiency & Rolling Resistance [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're just trying to shake people off this scent.

BTW if I'm faster anytime soon, it's because I've been training extra hard, eating right, and not because of any of this nonsense :)
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