What happens are races? Folks have died because of the existing rule that USAT and WTC use? If so, where, which races? So, what happened 2 years ago? What was the water temp? Were wetsuits allowed? Again, you continue to imply that 2 years ago real bad stuff happened because the rule we are talking about, 78-84 one can wear a wetsuit, was not followed. I am just trying to see if I am missing something.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

touche - although I cannot say how involved he has or has not been in rule changes that are currently taking place for wetsuits.

Nor will anyone ever know what the water temp was 2 years ago but I'll bet you my next pay check it was well over 80 degrees.
It felt like swimming in a hot tub!

Wonder if that could be looked up from the link posted?

Seattle is close to Mount Rainier like Baltimore is close to DC. Please.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Seattle is approx 80 miles from Mt. Ranier. If the bike course is flat but went near the mts then no RD is going to change the course to include Mts. However if the course was already in the Mts and was altered to include a significantly steeper climb than previously thought - I would already be prepared for that. If there is any climbing involved, I always show up with more gearing than I need. I think your analogy just doesn't work because you really cannot analyze oranges if you are looking at apples.

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Nor do I use punctuation in the way a child sprinkles glitter over a ribbon of glue on construction paper - Trash Talk

   

If the USAT rule does not specify that the race director is required to allow athletes the choice, then he is not required to do so. Since USAT referees the event, I think theirs are the rules that most apply, obviously or the water temps would have been 77.9 in all likelihood.

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Nor do I use punctuation in the way a child sprinkles glitter over a ribbon of glue on construction paper - Trash Talk

WOW, stumbling on this thread was like having to look at an accident as you drive by!! I was there watching friends (as I had raced the week before) and when I saw the swim times they did seem a bit long for the people I know who are very good swimmers even with out wetsuits. So I would guess it was off a bit. I also went for a run during the bike and it was God awful hot and humid and you knew people were going to melt especially if they went after it on the bike (it didnt seem as windy as usual but I only rode about 15 miles casually).
I like a wetsuit on MORE than the next guy, but when you swam -the person next to you didn't have a wetsuit, the swim was not shorter for them, and when you ran it was the same temp for the next guy or girl -so who cares. I get the rules debate somewhat but now 205 posts (as I add to it)!!
Stating the obvious- you can only compare within the same race, especially with the variables at Eagleman (which kicked me around a few years ago as well) so move on.

Um, that's sort of what analogies are for.

But fine, imagine a duathlon scheduled to go in Death Valley on a 2-lap out-and-back on the southern (flat) part of Scotty's Castle Road. That would be no trouble for anyone on a tri bike with a double and 11-23 gearing. The bike leg is advertised as "flat and fast."

Suppose there's a chance of construction near the turnaround, the RD has known this for two years, but he doesn't tell anyone. On race day the construction is in fact in place and the RD announces, 1 hour before the race, that the race instead will go up and down Daylight Pass (4000'+) twice. I'm sure some of the more top-heavy athletes would not be happy about that. Do you think that they would have the right to be upset or would you say "learn to climb"?

An analogy is a comparison of two things that are similar in some respects but dissimilar in others. Here the similarities to the Eagleman swim are that: 1) the RD knew (or should have known) that he'd need a contingency plan; 2) there was a solution of minimal impact and effort available (for Eagleman, doing what I suggested several posts ago versus running more laps on a smaller segment of Scotty's Castle Road for this example); and 3) the RD chose the solution of most impact.

The dissimilarities are: 1) du vs. tri; 2) swim vs. bike; and 3) no rules were made up on the spot in my example; and, sure 4) my example is hypothetical.

It is possible to reasonably say "no, don't complain" for my example but "yes, complain" for Eagleman because of dissimilarity #2. I don't think it would be reasonable to go the other way around.

Do I have to call myself out for condescension for this post?

Light chop and no wetsuits.

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Disco
South Bend, IN

Habitual Line Stepper..

I think that I would win that bet. In the Photo Categories section, change it to swim and view all of the wetsuit that were worn. Not the first page because those are pros but in the later pages.
http://www.asiorders.com/...nt.asp?EVENTID=32505

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I said goodbye to this thread a day+ ago, and looked up to see you going strong. I think it was Churchill who said a fanatic was someone "who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

Oh I know we wore wetsuits ... the bet is what was the actual water temp in that 3' deep cove we swam in.
One will never know.

I will take that as a compliment. Yep, I believe in safety and rules and never lose focus on trying to improve these.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Agreed
Nothing


Way to HTFU and go out there do it and respect the results. That is the spirit of racing.

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Run like you stole something
Formerly Fueled by ZYM

Your analogy is not valid because Death Valley is too far from UC Davis to have a Du. ;)


ETA: I have to support the annoying rule-mongers here. It just doesn't make sense to not have a self-consistent code upon which such a massive event is based. While safety may have been more assured with the end result, I would posit that making such decisions on the fly (which appears to have occurred by all evidence) increases the chances of a safety issue. Those that say HTFU and STFU, aren't seeing that.


On the other hand, I DID HTFU and swam this swim even tho I was extremely nervous doing so. Not because I couldn't, but because I am inexperienced in such matters. I disagree with the decision, but am happy that it was made as I was tested and came out the better.

Water temperature at the buoy was 24.3 degrees Celsius (75.7 degrees Fahrenheit) at 6:30am on June 8, 2008. See this link a few links away from the main CAMM2 buoy page via "Real Time Data" and "View Hourly Historical Data".

Of course we still don't know what the temperature was at the venue as measured by USAT/WTA standards. On Sunday it was a couple of degrees higher there than at the buoy (which was 25.2C=77.4F) -- does anyone remember exactly what they announced over the PA?

79+ ... I want to say 79.6 but I could be wrong. I did remember hearing 79 a lot so it was definitely under 80.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I'll have to drive out this weekend and see where that buoy is exactly. Problem with that course is most of it is in the cove.
Guess i owe someone my paycheck ... shewww glad I make minimum wage.

For those who questioned the RD over ruling USAT rules for safety ..... here is the first paragraph of the USAT rules.

USA Triathlon

Competitive Rules

The Competitive Rules are intended to provide for the orderly and consistent administration of events sanctioned by

USA Triathlon and are not designed to establish standards of care for the safety of participants or other persons.

Every participant, official, volunteer and spectator should consider all safety issues and make related decisions

prudently without reliance upon the Competitive Rules.

Sorry, provide data that following the rules that have been in place for years is a safety issue!!!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

uhh ... Baltimore IS close to DC ... I say this having commuted from the former to the latter for 5 years ...

... umm ... and swimming swimming swimming ... (to stay on topic, should that be a concern)

Not in the context of a bike event, it isn't.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Data or just common sense that wetsuits cause dehydration when water temps are warm.
One thing if water temp is warm and weather is mild but another when water temp is warm and heat index on the course is over 100 degrees, hence the DNF's for the day.
I can't imagine what the carnage would have been if they wore wetsuits. Oh wait I can ... jog memory ... June 8th 2008!

Luckily the RD in this case used common sense and considered the safety of the athletes as he is allowed over the rules provided as a "guideline" by USAT.

#1. You are right on with your statement. The RD decision was the right call for the day at hand.
#2. I cant believe this thread still has this much steam. I told you all H2OFUN would NEVER give up!

I would love to see him direct a race.

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Robert Flanigan

He is flat out wrong, but just my opinion. :o)

Nah, you would have to follow rules for races I am the RD at.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'd agree with you that water temps were above 80 in 2008, they had to be ... while I was happy to be swimming with my personal flotation device/wetsuit, i paid dearly for it on the rest of the race ... I finished with an ok time for my first 1/2 and for the conditions, but I could never really get it together on the bike or run b/c I started out so goddamn hot. I don't know if i could do 2008 over again whether I'd wear the wetsuit ... ? ... I imagine I would, I'd just take some more care in T1 to get cooled off sufficiently.

... and good lord, wasn't the hose at the finish the most remarkable thing? to feel your body temp drop from "cooked" to "normal" in about 5 seconds was just amazing!

My opinion is that the person who made the call for a no-wetsuit swim exercised good common sense based on my own personal experience at that particular race in varying degrees of weather on 5 seperate occasions over the past decade.

Rules are one thing, safety is another, common sense is another. They may or may not be related but at the end of the day, every participant had the right to make their own decision on whether to get into the water or not after learning the decision.

I did see a number of people riding away from the transition area with all their gear upon my arrival...

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
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