"Now, if only the RD would come and post I am sorry, I messed up, and I will have a written plan ready for next year. At 76 as the cutoff, many of these races in WTC better be ready.[/reply] "

OMG, an RD doesn't need to come on ST and apologize. LOL. That's absurd. If he did, then cool, but not a necessity to ease the wounded ego's of triathletes not able to cope with a non-wetsuit swim.

Listen, I spent a TON of money to go to Oceanside this year to qualify for Clearwater. I lost 4 minutes on a drafting call when the dude in front of me just past me and sat up to take a drink on the steepest incline of the bike course. He was blocking, but I lost 4 minutes for the penalty. It pissed me off for the entire race.

Bottom line, sh!t happens and I didn't qualify for Clearwater. But not because of the drafting 4 minutes, but because I wasn't prepared to deal with the situation and I let it ruin my race. And I wasn't really fit enough to battle Desert Dude and JPFlores. But should I go on ST and demand the bike marshall should come on ST and apologize for all drafting calls that are actually should have been blocking calls? Please.

And before I argue anymore, Dave, did you or have you ever raced at Eagleman before? Just wondering, because anyone that has been in the Choptank should know that it can change rapidly there. Either way you are entitled to your opinion, I'm just curious.

[reply
Just my personality, I try to help improve stuff, which means one has to start by asking tough TQC questions on what the problem statement is.

Yes, and I fully understand this means I have lots of arrow in the back. :o)[/reply]

TQC....there is the problem. The specs have been upgraded in the past decade, we no longer use TQC or TQM, it was all BS anyways.

OMG, an RD doesn't need to come on ST and apologize. LOL. That's absurd. If he did, then cool, but not a necessity to ease the wounded ego's of triathletes not able to cope with a non-wetsuit swim.

Listen, I spent a TON of money to go to Oceanside this year to qualify for Clearwater. I lost 4 minutes on a drafting call when the dude in front of me just past me and sat up to take a drink on the steepest incline of the bike course. He was blocking, but I lost 4 minutes for the penalty. It pissed me off for the entire race.

Bottom line, sh!t happens and I didn't qualify for Clearwater. But not because of the drafting 4 minutes, but because I wasn't prepared to deal with the situation and I let it ruin my race. And I wasn't really fit enough to battle Desert Dude and JPFlores. But should I go on ST and demand the bike marshall should come on ST and apologize for all drafting calls that are actually should have been blocking calls? Please.

And before I argue anymore, Dave, did you or have you ever raced at Eagleman before? Just wondering, because anyone that has been in the Choptank should know that it can change rapidly there. Either way you are entitled to your opinion, I'm just curious.[/reply]
Nope, other than Nationals or worlds, never done a race out of Calif, and have no plans to.

You, and some others are totally missing the point, but I am just trying to ask a fair macro level question, and some folks want to just go for the kill. I understand this, seen it many many times in life.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

TQC....there is the problem. The specs have been upgraded in the past decade, we no longer use TQC or TQM, it was all BS anyways.[/reply]
Well, I used in the last decade many times to work on tough emotional issues. Now, maybe in the last 15 months with no job things have changed. :o)

I guess you are right, who cares. All these races fill up anyways. Forward on

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just so this thread doesn't die ...

I'll restate that I was DQ'd; swimming 1:14 in my bike shorts. I left my swim suit in the car at their shuttle parking lot because I thought it was a wetsuit swim. No way to get back to the car when I learned it was no wetsuit.

Something that hasn't been discussed is the large number of folks shown on the 'unofficial results' as finishers when they should also have been DQ for exceeding 1:10 in the swim. When I finished the bike, there was duct tape at my bike rack with my race number and 'Do not run.' I asked to run, but was told to turn in my chip. Not sure how they are dealing with the folks that kept their chip and ran anyway.

$250 for a shirt that I can't wear! Still debating going back next year.

While we're talking logistics - the traffic getting back over the Bay Bridge was a bear - 90 minutes to cover 5 miles. Why can't this race be scheduled a week before Memorial Day so we have cooler weather and avoid the summer beach crowds?

Jim B.

I think you are wildly blowing this out of proportion. It is not the end of the world and I, for one, am not taking a "kill shot".

I just think that an athlete should be able to adapt to most situations. If they can't, then they can go back, train, and try again.

Again, it sucks for those that were counting on a wetsuit swim. But I don't think people should go into an endurance race thinking conditions will alwys be the same. Everyone should plan for a little extra distance, a little extra heat, a little extra wind, a little extra humidity. But again, that's just my opinion.

Dude, that sucks, I feel for you.

But...do you mean swim skin when you say swim suit? Were you planning on a full wardrobe change? I mean, that is totally your choice to do so, who am I to knock it, I'm just wondering what the plan was?

While this does suck for you, I would email the RD with your concerns and any comments regarding the race, negative and/or positive (feedback is always a good thing either way), but I wouldn't let it get in the way of signing up again for next year. Get revenge on the course. Train your butt off and destroy the course next year. It's the epic battle of DNF to PR!!!!

All I would like to see is the ability to know the rules before I sign up for a race. Then as things happen and changes are made following the rules, I am 100% with you. When I RD a race, I try to exceed this goal for the athletes. The couple of times things did not work out as planned, I said I was sorry, offered them free entry into the race for next year, and made changes to hopefully fix some things we had not thought of.

Now, I do think that taking a person who signed up for a race, and trained for one assuming they could wear a wetsuit up to 84 degrees, and then giving them a surprise on race morning is putting folks safety at risk. But, just my opinion, and something I hope I would never do to racers.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Will you wear your wetsuit at your next race if it's over 78 degrees...or will you follow the rules the RD hands down on race morning? Will you argue the rules or follow the direction of the RD? Can you accept the fact that the RD is in charge and will make his/her best judgement given the information at hand?

On Sunday, Vigo made the call based on the information given to him. He made the call with the rules and safety of the athletes in mind. He didn't make this call lightly knowing the consternation it would cause.

Having raced on Sunday, I can say he made the right call. The water was very warm and fudging the 77.9 temp would have raised the risk of more heat exhaustion for athletes racing in the 90+ degree heat.

It sucks that the swim was 'long' due to the current. It sucks that some people were DQed because of it and couldn't finish the race. But this stuff happens all the time. All you can do it prepare the best you can and accept that the conditions might not be ideal on race morning.

It is easy for you to pass judgement from California for a race that occurred in Maryland on Sunday. You look at the facts and compare the language in the emails, website, and rule books. But in the end, the facts on the ground at the time of the race are what determined the actions of the RD.

Bottom line, the RD made the call. If you plan on doing a race in mid-atlantic region, you better be prepared for the possibility of a non-wetsuit swim. It could happen and when the decision is made, it will come from the RD and you'll need to deal with it.

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Yes, that's what I'm implying. I wouldn't have any problem with it if it had been announced ahead of time (prior to registration) that there would be no wetsuits over 78. Then everyone knows what they're getting into. But asking quite a few people to fork over $255 and then changing the rules at the last minute into something they won't be able to finish seems wrong, especially if the reason for the rule change is because the RD wasn't prepared for high water temperatures despite readings around 78 for the previous week.

That is what they announced. i assume because you cannot win an award if you wear one and it is above 78 that they decided the risk of heat stroke from overheating was more of an issue than having a faster swim. I was in an early wave and the heat was brutal. if you were in a later wave and spent an hour cooking in a wetsuit, then went for the bike and run, the risk of overheating would have been far greater than if you had not worn a wetsuit. It sounds like a smart risk management program for the RD to me.
I actually felt like I had a good swim but the tide was ebbing at the start (causing us to swim against current) and the return leg was in an area where the tidal current was effectively negated by the Yacht club Pier. I think the amount of time gain was fairly inline with what I have previously seen in other races where we swam with a strong current so i don't think that the course was off by much.

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Run like you stole something
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Allowing someone to wear a wetsuit in a jacuzzi before racing a half ironman in 90+ degree heat is "putting folks safety at risk".

I think that is the point you don't get. The rules might allow wetsuits up to 84 degrees, but the RD can trump that rule if it puts the athletes safety at risk.

The RD made the call with the athletes safety in mind.

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The last race where I knew the water was 82, and the RD said 77.9, I did NOT wear my wetsuit since I had overheated in a previous race where it felt hot. (I was not able to measure that race). I got my buck kicked in the race and it impacted my ranking, but my safety was more important. Now, if USAT every lowers their wet suit temp, it shall be interesting since some races I do tend to be on the warm side. I am always ready for a non wetsuit swim. I just would like a little more time to mentally prepare but I understand the need to just go with what happens on race day.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But they stated over the PA system that the reason was that they didn't have a way to keep track of everyone, not that they were concerned about safety.

Just to clarify - I planned to wear bike shorts and a long-sleeve Craft sun shirt under the wetsuit - so that's what I brought to the start area. I had a regular swim suit and a Blue-Seventy swim skin in the car, but left them because everything you took to the race start you had to shlep 4 miles back to your car after the race. Once you arrived at the race site there was no way back to the car (unless you took the initiative to ignore their parking plan and parked along the local streets - as apparently many folks smarter than I did). Hope this provides additional perspective on why the 180 degree wetsuit change from Saturday to Sunday caught me off guard.

Also not sure why folks that missed the swim cut-off are shown in the results when others were told to get off the course.

Just to clarify - DQ - not DNF, but the end effect is the same. I already sent a note to the timer to clarify the results and will send suggestions to the RD.

Thanks for your comments, Jim B.

I believe you are missing the point. It is not like this is something new. When WTC put out rules, they could have made a change like over 78 no wetsuits, period, or 76 or whatever they want. WTC, they, are the experts. RD's should not be second guessing them, IMO. But the difference is I am a process guy, and believe RD's should be ready for what happens on race day, just like you are asking us athletes to do. But, it looks like we just have different expectations of an RD.

And if you can show me, in published writing from WTC, that the RD has the authority to basically throw out the rule book on race day, based on just his/her opinion, I guess I will have learned something new about WTC.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

They also said "the tide is ebbing... no the tide is slack there is nor current"

you realize that if they say that there is a heat risk and they don't cancel the race and someone suffers a heat stroke or similar injury they will probably get a lawsuit from someone ignoring the "participant assumes all risk clause" so they probably would not make such a statement.

honestly, it being a qualifier race look at it as practice for the event that you are qualifying for.... a race where you cannot wear a wetsuit...

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Run like you stole something
Formerly Fueled by ZYM

I think CTA knows full well that not all of the 2000+ participants are in it for the slots. If they want to run a race solely for those folks then I doubt they'd get as much support from the community. Bottom line: if you're going to allow the masses then you ought to treat them fairly.

To be fair, it was only 2 1/4 miles back to the parking lot. But where were the shuttles that were supposed to start going back at noon?


Let us know what you hear from either of them. I'll do the same, having sent my suggestions to CTA this morning.

Absolutely. But certainly we can expect the same degree of preparation from the RD. There are over 140 posts on this thread, and still there is disagreement about what the rules required. While there are a bunch of anectodal swim reports about the water being hot and the possiblity of overheating with a wetsuit, the fact is that was not the stated reason for the change on race morning. The announcement was only that they were changing it to a non wetsuit swim because the water was over 78 and that they had no way to track people who would have decided to still race w/ a wetsuit. That was THEIR reason. Since they didn't have a system in place, they wouldn't allow racers to use wetsuits. The decision was never communicated to be one based on safety considerations. It was communicated to be based on a desire to ensure tracking accuracy. The safety issue is hard to argue with -- of course everyone wants to make decisions to protect the safety of the racers. But in this instance it's being used to justify a rule deviation that was made for completely different reasons. They had no way to track wetsuit racers, so they said no wetsuits.

People on Saturday were hovering around the "swim-out" and going for quick swims in their wetsuits. There had to be close to 50 people there at one point, all in wetsuits, all jumping in and taking short swims. None of them came out complaining of the water being too warm. Lots of people were complaining when they changed the rule on race morning. The water on Saturday couldn't have been very different on Sunday (see some of the posts above about people doing a quick test swim and stating how warm the water was). We were told on Saturday by the RD that it was a wetsuit swim. There were 2 pre-race meetings on Saturday, and not a single comment was made that raised even the slightest possibility that there could be a change that eliminated wetsuits altogether. Not a single comment at packet pick-up, not a single comment at the pre-race meetings, not a single comment when racking your bike. The river didn't shoot up 2 degrees overnight. Why didn't they tell everyone on Saturday? Why did the RD sound so absolutist about it being a wetsuit swim less than 24 hours before the race?

Conditions less than ideal? Adapt. The bike is windy? Adapt. The current is strong? Adapt. The rules are unclear? Make them clear. You're an RD and not sure if it's going to be a wetsuit swim? Don't tell everyone it's a wetsuit swim. You have no way of tracking wetsuit racers who want to race and forego awards? Adapt. I guarantee you the RD will have a contingency in place next year, and that with the exact same conditions they'll allow wetsuits and have a system that tracks those racers.

This was not a safety-based decision. This was a decision based on not having an adequate tracking system in place for people who wanted to race w/ wetsuits.

 
Unlike the apparently thorny issue of whether "yes < 78" requires "no > 78" the swim rule no.7 seems pretty transparent: "The time limit for the swim is 1:10 from the start of your individual wave."

Doesn't quite square with the 40+ people recording finishing times with swims of 1:11 or more. To say nothing of two finishers with swims over 1:40.

I assume the results are still preliminary and they'll be DQ'd later, but how hard can it be to spot a cap that's 1:53 after the appropriate wave start? And how cruel to let them finish in 9:21 and then DQ them afterwards.

Sounds like you got a rough deal. Or maybe you were spared!

Maybe the RD can make the following adaptations to the 2011 event.

Last wave is for all those who wish to simply participate to complete the course rather than race for awards or slots.

Last wave is a "participants" wave and goes off 60 minutes after the previous wave to keep it mostly seperate from the competitor waves.
Wetsuits allowed, use at your own discretion
Drafting discouraged but not penalized
Blocking discouraged but not penalized
Overtaken/Position fouls not assessed
Official race results say FINISHER (no splits or time, they were not properly racing for time anyway) - but you can still get a slip with your time from the timers just like they did at the race site after you finish.

OR

Maybe those who sign up for a half ironman race can treat the challenge with the respect it deserves and put in the time to learn to swim with more confidence/faster/safer or whatever their concern is that makes them feel the need for a wetsuit.

And everyone should get a nice trophy for "participating", to recognize their achievement.

They do dont they ? Does not everyone get a nice finishers medal :o) If i did the race I would look at it as a equalizer not having a wetsuit. Anyway if i did do it I would be pissed tha they offered a KONA spot to any 40-44 who would take it but they are the breaks. I should not have himmed and hawed about signing up. anyway what is done os done you cannot get it back.

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You're right - 2 1/4 miles - I just checked Google Maps - had to stop to ask a policeman for directions - luckily I knew it was the Middle School - he wanted to send me to the Elementary School. As far as shuttles - we were told no bikes on the shuttle - you were expected to ride your bike back to your car. Of course this wasn't an option before the race because bikes were 'locked' in transition.

Thanks for your comments. Hope you had a better weekend. Jim B.