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Re: Eagleman swim? [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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#1. You are right on with your statement. The RD decision was the right call for the day at hand.
#2. I cant believe this thread still has this much steam. I told you all H2OFUN would NEVER give up!

I would love to see him direct a race.


He is flat out wrong, but just my opinion. :o)

Nah, you would have to follow rules for races I am the RD at.


My opinion is that the person who made the call for a no-wetsuit swim exercised good common sense based on my own personal experience at that particular race in varying degrees of weather on 5 seperate occasions over the past decade.

Rules are one thing, safety is another, common sense is another. They may or may not be related but at the end of the day, every participant had the right to make their own decision on whether to get into the water or not after learning the decision.

I did see a number of people riding away from the transition area with all their gear upon my arrival...


Again, please give me facts as to the safety issue and common sense. Since I have no idea how this race can be unique. 78-84 is the same temp for all the races with the same distances and they have no safety issues or common sense issues. And again, if he feels this is the case, which happened 2 years ago, it sure seems either he would have been fighting USAT and WTC to eliminate this part of the rule, OR, have gotten a written wavier from USAT during the last 2 years. Simple stuff, if that was the real reason. Not having a process ready to go is what the announcer told the people.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Eagleman swim? [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that the person who made the call for a no-wetsuit swim exercised good common sense based on my own personal experience at that particular race in varying degrees of weather on 5 seperate occasions over the past decade.

Rules are one thing, safety is another, common sense is another. They may or may not be related but at the end of the day, every participant had the right to make their own decision on whether to get into the water or not after learning the decision.

I did see a number of people riding away from the transition area with all their gear upon my arrival...

Which brings us back to two questions.

1) Why is the rule written as it is in the first place? Aren't most of the 78-84 degree swims in places that are hot?

2) If it was a safety issue at Eagleman and the decision was made based experiences at the 2008 Eagleman (and your four other times over the last decade), why didn't CTA institute and publicize a wetsuit ban for temps over 78 then? Or at least given participants some advance notice when it became clear at least a week before the event that the water was going to be very warm? Instead we have the "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" message from CTA.

And while I'm rolling:

3) What are the safety implications of advertising "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" and then banning them at the last minute? You've then got a whole lot of possibly weak swimmers already at the event. While a few of them may have walked away, I'll bet that most of them figured they might as well give it a shot as long as they were there. It is a good thing nothing happened other than people getting DQed or swallowing so much brackish water that they DNFed. (Here I'd like to point out that although I've described myself as a "weak" swimmer, I should have said "slow" -- "weak" has apparently given some the impression that I'd drown without a wetsuit; I was comfortable [but again, slow] all 1+ hours of my Eagleman swim.)

4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble.

It will be interesting to see how CTA advertises Eagleman 2011. I think they'll have to have a statement to the effect of "water temperatures have ranged between 68 and 80 degrees; in the event of water temperatures above 76, wetsuits will be banned." We'll see what that does to registration. It may still sell out, but I bet there are a lot fewer localish people at the race.
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Re: Eagleman swim? [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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...
But technically, the link on his website is from 2009. The rules have been changed since then. This was a USAT sanctioned race and should have been operated under 2010 USAT rules. From the current USAT website:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...l-sanction-questions

"What are the temperature guidelines for wearing a wetsuit during a sanctioned race?
Wet suits may legally be worn when water temperature is at or below 78 degrees Fahrenheit. Participants are allowed to wear wet suits when the water temperature is 78-84 degrees but are not eligible for prizes, awards, or age group placement. Wet suites are not permitted for temperatures above 84 degrees Fahrenheit."

I personally don't care. But if everyone takes a step back and looks at the facts. The RD should have updated his website and should have been prepared for this situation.

Having an out of date website doesn't make the RD right.

I just noticed this on the USAT site and remembered that someone had posted it earlier. So we have the USAT stating that the rule is "provided that" in one place (section 4.4 [page 7] of the PDF on the "Download the rules" link; see also section 4.5 for "Notice of Wet Suit Policy") and "but" in another. "A provided that B" and "A but B" are two very different statements.

So even USAT doesn't even know what their wetsuit rule is!
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that the person who made the call for a no-wetsuit swim exercised good common sense based on my own personal experience at that particular race in varying degrees of weather on 5 seperate occasions over the past decade.

Rules are one thing, safety is another, common sense is another. They may or may not be related but at the end of the day, every participant had the right to make their own decision on whether to get into the water or not after learning the decision.

I did see a number of people riding away from the transition area with all their gear upon my arrival...


Which brings us back to two questions.

1) Why is the rule written as it is in the first place? Aren't most of the 78-84 degree swims in places that are hot?

2) If it was a safety issue at Eagleman and the decision was made based experiences at the 2008 Eagleman (and your four other times over the last decade), why didn't CTA institute and publicize a wetsuit ban for temps over 78 then? Or at least given participants some advance notice when it became clear at least a week before the event that the water was going to be very warm? Instead we have the "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" message from CTA.

And while I'm rolling:

3) What are the safety implications of advertising "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" and then banning them at the last minute? You've then got a whole lot of possibly weak swimmers already at the event. While a few of them may have walked away, I'll bet that most of them figured they might as well give it a shot as long as they were there. It is a good thing nothing happened other than people getting DQed or swallowing so much brackish water that they DNFed. (Here I'd like to point out that although I've described myself as a "weak" swimmer, I should have said "slow" -- "weak" has apparently given some the impression that I'd drown without a wetsuit; I was comfortable [but again, slow] all 1+ hours of my Eagleman swim.)

4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble.

It will be interesting to see how CTA advertises Eagleman 2011. I think they'll have to have a statement to the effect of "water temperatures have ranged between 68 and 80 degrees; in the event of water temperatures above 76, wetsuits will be banned." We'll see what that does to registration. It may still sell out, but I bet there are a lot fewer localish people at the race.


So far, these questions have been asked multiple times by multiple people, and no answers. This, for me, answers what really happened.

Now, what would have happened if a person had died in the swim this year? Boy, can you imagine the questions that would be raised.

So, WTC has a new rule that states the water cutoff is 76 degrees on Sept 1st. What they have not done is make enough detail as to what happens if over 76.0. Sure seems then need to quickly answer this since so many feel over 78 was unsafe. I guess they will now say over 76 is unsafe so we have been allowing folks to swim for years in unsafe 76-78 degree water with wetsuits. Now, how it can be safe today over 76 but not safe as of Sept 1st, this stuff just makes NO sense. And if it is unsafe to wear a wetsuit in water over 76, why is WTC waiting until Sept 1st to change? Why does USAT have, based on some opinions, a rule that put racers in a unsafe position? So many questions, so few answers.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: Jun 16, 10 16:26
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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4.4 Wet suits. Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event
sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water
temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet
suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range
shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal
to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit. The wetsuit policy for elite athletes shall be determined by the USAT
Athletes Advisory Council. The AAC has set the wetsuit maximum temperature for elite/pros at 68 degrees for swim
distances less than 3000 meters and 71.6 degrees for distances of 3000 meters or greater.

4.5 Notice of Wet Suit Policy. The wet suit policy for any particular race shall be included on all race literature that
is intended for distribution to potential participants. The wet suit policy shall conform to Section 4.4, unless a
change is granted in compliance with Section 1.4. The wet suit policy on such literature shall include the following
information, if applicable;
a. Any changes from Section 4.4;
b. Any specific restrictions on equipment;
c. Any disparity between the wet suit policy for age group athletes and the policy for elite athletes.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Eagleman swim? [Skewer] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, it's hard to believe what a hotly debated issue this seems to be. Seems simple enough to me. The water was above the temperature at which wetsuits are allowed (not to reopen the debate about subsection this or that), so we had to swim without them. I'd guess that 95% of participants swim several thousand metres a week in a pool without a wetsuit, so just about everyone is more used to swimming without a wetsuit than with one. As far as distances go, I've swam lots of races that have been ridiculously short, and some that have been quite a bit long. River swims (as opposed to lakes) have currents. This one might have been a little long, and almost certainly had a little current that didn't favour the swimmers. You pay your money and you take your chances. We're lucky it wasn't choppy too! Yes, I went a little slower than I would have liked, just like the other 2000 or so people in the race. But it was a great race - very well organized, tremendous support from the local residents and volunteers, and great competition. It would be nice to read about the positive things in this race rather than whining about going a few minutes slower than expected!

MAO Elite Team
http://www.markallenonline.com
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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Well, found some more data on the IM web site.
http://ironman.com/...-on-september-1-2010

Clearly states the updated rule says
" Athletes who choose to wear a wetsuit in water temperatures exceeding 24.5 degrees C /76.1 degrees F will not be eligible for awards, including World Championship slots."

And some continue to try and use the excuse the water was too warm for safety. I guess they had better quickly get a hold of Jimmy and WTC and tell them they continue to put a rule in place that RD's know is unsafe so they just make there own rules and ignore the WTC rule. I guess when you cannot fight with facts, you just make stuff up.


Ironman Announces U.S. Rule Amendments for 2011 Season New rules to take effect on September 1, 2010
Published Tuesday, April 13, 2010
World Triathlon Corporation (WTC), owners of the Ironman and Ironman 70.3 Series, announces modifications to several rules and regulations relating to the swim at U.S. races. Effective September 1, 2010, which is the start of Ironman's 2011 competition season, new rules for apparel and wetsuits will apply at all Ironman and 70.3 events in the U.S., including both World Championships. The amendments were made to further standardize rules in the Ironman/70.3 Series and ensure a fair playing field at events around the globe. The changes will include the following:

• Swimwear and swim apparel must be comprised of 100 percent textile material, such as nylon or lycra, and may not include rubberized material such as polyurethane or neoprene. Swimwear may not cover the neck or extend past the shoulders or knees. Swimwear may contain a zipper. A race kit or trisuit may be worn underneath swimwear.
Advertisement




• Wetsuits cannot measure more than 5 millimeters thick.

• Wetsuits may be worn in water temperatures up to and including 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Athletes who choose to wear a wetsuit in water temperatures exceeding 24.5 degrees C /76.1 degrees F will not be eligible for awards, including World Championship slots. Wetsuits will be prohibited in water temperatures greater than 28.8 degrees C/84 degrees F.

“Ironman recognizes the importance of showcasing the competitive element at all events. We believe these amendments place more emphasis on performance and function and less on technology, therefore staying true with the Ironman spirit,” says Ironman’s Head of Officials, Jimmy Riccitello.

Ironman's rule changes are consistent with rule changes adopted by swimming and triathlon’s international governing bodies, FINA and ITU, respectively.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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"4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble"

Greater congestion? Were you at the same race as me? If there are let's say 350 people in a wave who typically come out of the water between 25 and 45mins but now that is spread between say 27mins and 1hr15 - how is it more congested when spread over a longer time period?

Further more, the side benefit of the greater spread of swimmers exiting the water meant there was no drafting problem on the bike. Yep, I have not seen one post about drafting at eagleman this year which is probably why so much attention is being put into this thread!

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Re: Eagleman swim? [Mikey G] [ In reply to ]
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Mikey, I enjoyed the swim. I went in the M40-44. there wasn't any current when we started; the guys around me were standing on a sandbar at the end of the boat ramp. it seemed like half the group bunched up on the outside, the other half on the inside, I swam between the groups. the water was calm except for a few rollers just before the first turn buoy. i don't know why we were all so slow but since i put forth ZERO effort i can't blame the conditions. the course being long sounds reasonable.

it stinks that the no-wetsuits threw everyone off their game. and it does seem like the RD could have noticed that all the times were slow and been a bit more lax on the time cut offs. but I guess those are the breaks.

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Re: Eagleman swim? [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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"4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble"

Greater congestion? Were you at the same race as me? If there are let's say 350 people in a wave who typically come out of the water between 25 and 45mins but now that is spread between say 27mins and 1hr15 - how is it more congested when spread over a longer time period?

Further more, the side benefit of the greater spread of swimmers exiting the water meant there was no drafting problem on the bike. Yep, I have not seen one post about drafting at eagleman this year which is probably why so much attention is being put into this thread!

You'd be right if it were a single wave. But as it was the waves were stacking up on each other more than usual, at least based on my experience at Columbia. Maybe someone can construct a model to see which factor (more spread for a single wave vs. more overlap between different waves) dominates.
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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Which brings us back to two questions.

1) Why is the rule written as it is in the first place? Aren't most of the 78-84 degree swims in places that are hot?

2) If it was a safety issue at Eagleman and the decision was made based experiences at the 2008 Eagleman (and your four other times over the last decade), why didn't CTA institute and publicize a wetsuit ban for temps over 78 then? Or at least given participants some advance notice when it became clear at least a week before the event that the water was going to be very warm? Instead we have the "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" message from CTA.

And while I'm rolling:

3) What are the safety implications of advertising "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" and then banning them at the last minute? You've then got a whole lot of possibly weak swimmers already at the event. While a few of them may have walked away, I'll bet that most of them figured they might as well give it a shot as long as they were there. It is a good thing nothing happened other than people getting DQed or swallowing so much brackish water that they DNFed. (Here I'd like to point out that although I've described myself as a "weak" swimmer, I should have said "slow" -- "weak" has apparently given some the impression that I'd drown without a wetsuit; I was comfortable [but again, slow] all 1+ hours of my Eagleman swim.)

4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble.

It will be interesting to see how CTA advertises Eagleman 2011. I think they'll have to have a statement to the effect of "water temperatures have ranged between 68 and 80 degrees; in the event of water temperatures above 76, wetsuits will be banned." We'll see what that does to registration. It may still sell out, but I bet there are a lot fewer localish people at the race.

I know people want this thread to go away but these are excellent questions!!!


____________________________________________________
"Just HTFU and out sprint whoever tries to take 96th from you. This is a RACE, not a cupcake walk! " -Fungshuay@ST
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Re: Eagleman swim? [triblaq] [ In reply to ]
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Which brings us back to two questions.

1) Why is the rule written as it is in the first place? Aren't most of the 78-84 degree swims in places that are hot?

2) If it was a safety issue at Eagleman and the decision was made based experiences at the 2008 Eagleman (and your four other times over the last decade), why didn't CTA institute and publicize a wetsuit ban for temps over 78 then? Or at least given participants some advance notice when it became clear at least a week before the event that the water was going to be very warm? Instead we have the "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" message from CTA.

And while I'm rolling:

3) What are the safety implications of advertising "wetsuits are allowed and encouraged" and then banning them at the last minute? You've then got a whole lot of possibly weak swimmers already at the event. While a few of them may have walked away, I'll bet that most of them figured they might as well give it a shot as long as they were there. It is a good thing nothing happened other than people getting DQed or swallowing so much brackish water that they DNFed. (Here I'd like to point out that although I've described myself as a "weak" swimmer, I should have said "slow" -- "weak" has apparently given some the impression that I'd drown without a wetsuit; I was comfortable [but again, slow] all 1+ hours of my Eagleman swim.)

4) If safety was such a concern, why no effort to reverse the course? The longer swim times certainly led to a lot of congestion in the water. If I'm reading the rules correctly then CTA already had to get a waiver to have waves with 350 athletes. Given the way the current was going, reversing the swim would have reduced times, thus reducing congestion and the chance of truly weak swimmers getting into trouble.

It will be interesting to see how CTA advertises Eagleman 2011. I think they'll have to have a statement to the effect of "water temperatures have ranged between 68 and 80 degrees; in the event of water temperatures above 76, wetsuits will be banned." We'll see what that does to registration. It may still sell out, but I bet there are a lot fewer localish people at the race.


I know people want this thread to go away but these are excellent questions!!!

Of all the years I have been on ST and seen issues like this at a race, this is the first time I have not seen the RD come on an post his/her thoughts? And do not try to say he/she is busy, or does not know this post is going on.
All folks involved with this race, WTC, etc., read this stuff all the time. Quiet speaks volumes from the owners. Again, Charlie from Rev3 is my type of RD. Honest. Admits mistakes. Looking forward to doing one of his races if close enough on the West Coast.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Eagleman swim? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Of all the years I have been on ST and seen issues like this at a race, this is the first time I have not seen the RD come on an post his/her thoughts? And do not try to say he/she is busy, or does not know this post is going on.
All folks involved with this race, WTC, etc., read this stuff all the time. Quiet speaks volumes from the owners. Again, Charlie from Rev3 is my type of RD. Honest. Admits mistakes. Looking forward to doing one of his races if close enough on the West Coast.

I know I've been piling on CTA this week, but I'm willing to take a step back and be patient. For all we know, CTA was put in a bad position by the USAT officials -- maybe there was a disagreement about the procedures for taking water tempertures, maybe CTA wanted to let the DQed people finish and USAT wouldn't let them. But if I don't hear something soon after the Celebration Sprint on the 27th I'll have to assume that CTA has no defense to offer.

I do expect a better response from USAT about the inconsistency in their rules, though ("provided that" vs. "but"). So far, nothing.
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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Of all the years I have been on ST and seen issues like this at a race, this is the first time I have not seen the RD come on an post his/her thoughts? And do not try to say he/she is busy, or does not know this post is going on.
All folks involved with this race, WTC, etc., read this stuff all the time. Quiet speaks volumes from the owners. Again, Charlie from Rev3 is my type of RD. Honest. Admits mistakes. Looking forward to doing one of his races if close enough on the West Coast.


I know I've been piling on CTA this week, but I'm willing to take a step back and be patient. For all we know, CTA was put in a bad position by the USAT officials -- maybe there was a disagreement about the procedures for taking water tempertures, maybe CTA wanted to let the DQed people finish and USAT wouldn't let them. But if I don't hear something soon after the Celebration Sprint on the 27th I'll have to assume that CTA has no defense to offer.

I do expect a better response from USAT about the inconsistency in their rules, though ("provided that" vs. "but"). So far, nothing.

If you have a question on the USAT rules, call Charlie Crawford directly. His cell number is on the USAT website. He is always willing to answer any questions on the rules USAT members have.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Eagleman swim? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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On a lighter note, the best thing about the swim was the second turnaround buoy where you got to stand up and stretch your legs before heading back on the final leg. It may not mean much to the fast people but to us slow pokes ... it's nice to be able to have a picnic in the middle of the swim course :)


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Eagleman swim? [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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On a lighter note, the best thing about the swim was the second turnaround buoy where you got to stand up and stretch your legs before heading back on the final leg. It may not mean much to the fast people but to us slow pokes ... it's nice to be able to have a picnic in the middle of the swim course :)

Ha! I did exactly that. Took about 5 steps, said hi to the guy on the kayak, got a clear view of the finish and kept going. I had a crazy thought I could be DQ'd for walking on the swim.


____________________________________________________
"Just HTFU and out sprint whoever tries to take 96th from you. This is a RACE, not a cupcake walk! " -Fungshuay@ST
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Re: Eagleman swim? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Of all the years I have been on ST and seen issues like this at a race, this is the first time I have not seen the RD come on an post his/her thoughts?

That kind of thing would go a long way. Even if there remained fundamental disagreement about the handling of it all, at least it would be a step toward attempting to clarify/explain his decision and how it went down. Whether it's a post here, an e-mail blast to all of the racers who registered similar to the blast they sent out a week or so before the race, or something on the cta site itself....a communication from the RD explaining why there was one message up until race morning and then a different decision on race morning would be the right thing to do.
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Re: Eagleman swim? [Skewer] [ In reply to ]
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I am one of those athletes negatively affected by the decision to disallow wetsuits. Triathlons are new to me, but I am in shape and trained hard for the last 7 months to get to the starting line. But the bottom line is that I was not able to get my swimming skill up to par with the Choptank River without a wetsuit. I decided to go anyway because I am supposedly allowed to swim up to 84 degrees with a wetsuit. Could I muscle through the distance without one, not sure, but the wetsuit was a mental crutch to help me in case I got into a bad situation amongst my 300 friends or if I just needed that breather or sightline to keep going. When the announcement was made, I was devastated. I knew I couldn't make it and felt I was putting myself in harms way by trying, so I made the painstaking decision to not race. I spent a lot of time, effort, and money to get to get so close only to have it taken away for what appears to be an "inconvenience" and not a safety ruling. The rules state that I would be able to swim with a wetsuit up to 84 degrees (I was there to finish, not place). No problem. If it was hot, I could have let more cool water in my wetsuit and changed my transition strategy to accomodate the extra heat. No problem.

Some here seem to think that only athletes able to complete the swim without a wetsuit should compete at all... "be prepared and train harder". Makes no sense. What about 90% of the field that rely on slow bike speeds or walking on the "run" to get through the race. After all they just want to finish. Maybe they should train harder too. Maybe USAT shouldn't allow walking on the Run (it is a run, right?) or perhaps a MPH minimum on the bike. These restrictions would eliminate those athletes that haven't trained hard enough for that discipline. Swimming doesn't give you many options to just get through it... there are fatal consequences unlike simply slowing down on the bike or walking on the run. I guarantee I would have beat many of those that competed because I am better on land, but I needed to "just get through it" in the water.

I sent an email to CTA and haven't received a response... shocker!
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Re: Eagleman swim? [ndiviii] [ In reply to ]
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i think that is the most legitimate grevience. you had an expectation based on the distributed rule. the execution was not as expected. i'd like to hear what CTA has to say. everyone says they are a good organization.
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Re: Eagleman swim? [usairl] [ In reply to ]
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Most Eagleman athletes prepared for months, most likely for a cumulative total of hundreds of hours. They spent hundreds of $ on an entry fee and more money on gear and consumables while preparing, plus the cost of travel and accommodation for the race weekend.

<snark>
Maybe they should have spent some of those hundreds of dollars on swim instruction.
</snark>

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bloxomo] [ In reply to ]
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I swam in the M40-44 wave and thought the swim was less congested than usual. I was dissappointed to leave my wetsuit in the bag, but oh well. I had a friend DQ'd for slow swim and he was bummed.

Overall the race is very well run. Having done other HIM distances I have never seen more aid stations than at Eagleman. Of course, I needed every last one of them as my quads cramped on the run and I saw my goal time go up in a puff of sweat. Lots of spectators, friendly townsfolk, good post-race atmosphere. Despite saying "why am I here again?" I'll be back until I get it right.

FWIW, I did see some drafting, but only one 60+masters man stood out as egregious.

Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe
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Re: Eagleman swim? [usairl] [ In reply to ]
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"Gentlemen" In all the years I have frequented ST this has been
the most civil exchange I can remember(congrats) and imo
one of the least informative. usairl points out some facts and
makes some pretty good points that I tend to agree with that
being said it is very unfortunate that the RD did not communicate
better which would have been more considerate and solved a lot of issues.
I have worked on a number of race committees and the RD has a lot of
wiggle room even without written approval from usat.
On the other hand someone registering for a race should realize that
any given race when advertised as wetsuit could turn nonwetsuit and
should realize that it is their responsibility to be able to swim the distance
with or without a wetsuit be it a 200yd pool swim or IM
Unfortunantly wetsuits have become swim aides instead of to keep you
warm in cold water which was the original use. Don't get me wrong
I enjoy the speed benefit as much as the next guy but I also realize
I need to be able to swim the distance without if need be
Mike
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Re: Eagleman swim? [bushpilot] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like the RD has learned a lesson in being more explicit or more communitive to his next race. This is an email just sent out for a race for 6/17 put on by the same folks.

This of course is not the reason why it was a no-wetsuit as per the announcer

"For those of you asking if you can wear your wetsuit and be ineligible for awards, we're not doing that because we have no way of tracking who is wearing a wetsuit and who is not. So, no wetsuits".

-----------------------
SWIM COURSE, CURRENT CONDITIONS AND WETSUITS:

The fresh water, Centennial Lake swim course is 0.62 miles (1100 yards,) and is a rectangular route heading do east and making 2, 90' turns and heading due west for the finish.

As of Friday, June 18th, the water is 77.5 degrees F measured at 6:30 am. Based on current expected weather forecasts, the air temperatures are expected to exceed 85 degrees F. Wetsuits for Amateurs are allowed and encouraged under 78 degrees F.

For Specific USAT Swimming Conduct Rules (Article IV, section 4.4) including wet suit rules click here.
Please note the following excerpts from these rules:

4.4 Wet suits. Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event
sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water
temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet
suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range
shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal
to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit. The wetsuit policy for elite/pro athletes shall be determined by the USAT
Athletes Advisory Council. The AAC has set the wetsuit maximum temperature for elite/pros at 68 degrees for swim
distances less than 3000 meters and 71.6 degrees for distances of 3000 meters or greater.

4.9 Illegal Equipment. Any swimmer wearing any artificial propulsion device, including but not limited to fins,
gloves, paddles, or floating devices of any kind shall be disqualified.

NOTE: REGARDING THE USE OF A WETSUIT BY AMATEURS IN WATER 78-84 DEGREES - IF THE WEATHER CONDITIONS ARE SUCH THAT THE USE OF A WETSUIT WOULD CONSTITUTE A MEDICAL DANGER (HYPERTHERMIA), THE RACE DIRECTOR, AFTER CONSULTATION WITH THE MEDICAL TEAM, MAY STILL PROHIBIT THEIR USE.

OUR GOAL IS TO KEEP YOU SAFE WHILE PROVIDING A GREAT RACE EXPERIENCE.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Last edited by: zoom: Jun 18, 10 7:45
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Re: Eagleman swim? [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Looks like the RD has learned a lesson in being more explicit or more communitive to his next race. This is an email just sent out for a race for 6/17 put on by the same folks.

This of course is not the reason why it was a no-wetsuit as per the announcer

"For those of you asking if you can wear your wetsuit and be ineligible for awards, we're not doing that because we have no way of tracking who is wearing a wetsuit and who is not. So, no wetsuits".

-----------------------
SWIM COURSE, CURRENT CONDITIONS AND WETSUITS:

The fresh water, Centennial Lake swim course is 0.62 miles (1100 yards,) and is a rectangular route heading do east and making 2, 90' turns and heading due west for the finish.

As of Friday, June 18th, the water is 77.5 degrees F measured at 6:30 am. Based on current expected weather forecasts, the air temperatures are expected to exceed 85 degrees F. Wetsuits for Amateurs are allowed and encouraged under 78 degrees F.

For Specific USAT Swimming Conduct Rules (Article IV, section 4.4) including wet suit rules click here.
Please note the following excerpts from these rules:

4.4 Wet suits. Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event
sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water
temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet
suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range
shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal
to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit. The wetsuit policy for elite/pro athletes shall be determined by the USAT
Athletes Advisory Council. The AAC has set the wetsuit maximum temperature for elite/pros at 68 degrees for swim
distances less than 3000 meters and 71.6 degrees for distances of 3000 meters or greater.

4.9 Illegal Equipment. Any swimmer wearing any artificial propulsion device, including but not limited to fins,
gloves, paddles, or floating devices of any kind shall be disqualified.

NOTE: REGARDING THE USE OF A WETSUIT BY AMATEURS IN WATER 78-84 DEGREES - IF THE WEATHER CONDITIONS ARE SUCH THAT THE USE OF A WETSUIT WOULD CONSTITUTE A MEDICAL DANGER (HYPERTHERMIA), THE RACE DIRECTOR, AFTER CONSULTATION WITH THE MEDICAL TEAM, MAY STILL PROHIBIT THEIR USE.

OUR GOAL IS TO KEEP YOU SAFE WHILE PROVIDING A GREAT RACE EXPERIENCE.

This is total BS from the RD, IMO. And, USAT allowing their races to be sanctioned when clearly he is not putting the processes in place that his signed contract states he will do. If there were safety issues someone for the first time ever in his races for 78-84 degrees, then USAT and WTC should not have their rules the way they are. But, if this RD really cared about safety, rather than just being lazy it seems, he would have spent the last 2 years working with USAT and WTC to eliminate totally this portion of the rules since he is saying he has more knowledge on this topic than all the experts USAT and WTC have used. Oh well, since I never plan to do any of his races, for me it is a do not care. But, caring about the integrity of USAT and WTC, oh well, .......

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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