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Drills vs. PC's
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It seems that we constatly discuss PC's on this forum. There are the PC'ers that swear by them and there are those of us who are sceptical and feel you can get as much if not more benefit from doing specific drills. I haven't used them so I can only comment on what I have done to strengthen my HF's and improve my pedal efficiency. I have had great success and constant improvement over the years with my plan as well. I am not saying that I don't think PC's work but in this game that the costs are enormous it is an expensive mistake if they don't.

That said, let's open this thing up then. I personally think that you can achieve similar/better results (far less expensive BTW) using specific drills. The drills I like are:

- Single Leg drills on your trainer: Most all of us have a trainer.

- Riding in the hills/mountains to improve peddal efficiency: Any issues with your pedal stroke will be apparent when pushing uphill.

- Cycle or spin class riding out of the saddle only: Try it for an hour long ride or class you will see

- Volume, volume and more volume
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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Let us put your question into perspective. I take you you think that all of those people here who have purchased a pair and think they work had never done what you suggest and, it seems, you think none of these people have to worry about where they spend their money.

Let us take 4 cyclists. Museeuw, Leipheimer, Hincapie, and you. Who do you think has done the fewest one legged-drills, and volume, and all the things you suggest? My guess is YOU!

Then, who do you think of all those on this list is the only one that thnks PC's are a gimmick and won't make you any faster over just doing the things you suggest? This is not a guess, YOU!

So, do all that you suggest, and get as good as you can possibly get and then try a pair and see if they can make you better. If they can, don't kick yourself too hard for wasting all that time.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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joking aside, T2, this is a very fair question. in my own case i am certainly no hincapie. however, i am 44 y/o and have ridden and raced and enjoyed and generally wasted massive amounts of my avocational time around bicycles since i was a teen. over that time i am here to say i have seen and done lots of things related to training and riding bikes, my friend. certainly everything you have mentioned and more. i am here to tell you, order a pair, put them on your bike, and ride them 50 miles one way and turn around and try to ride them home - that is, if you can make it even 5 miles . . . . . . . . now come talk to me about your gym work and one legged drills on the trainer. honestly man, they will kick your ass like you have never felt it kicked. i mean it quite literally when i say - " you have a better chance of killing yourself by holding your breath than you do of voluntarily doing what PC's make you do". check it out, and come tell me that i am wrong.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Let us put your response in perspective...you mention pro cyclists, well I don't see Lance jumping on board and saying the way he won his 5 tours was using PC's. I think he has done as many drills as the guys you mention don't YOU think?

I never said that didn't work. Rather I said I was skeptical and for the dollars you charge for PC's I would most definitely rather run out a few other grounders to be sure first. Second point is that I have several friends who do own them and have used them. They pretty much said what t-t-n said about kicking their a$$!!! But you know where those cranks are right now...in their garage.

Hey if you have the discretionary cash and are willing to spend the money then do it. I do believe that if you devote the time necessary to figure them out and become proficient then they probably are an effective tool. More power to the PC'ers but there are plenty of alternatives and guys/gals that don't use them that are just as good or better than anyone you can claim is using them.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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I thought I had a pretty efficient pedal stroke and was nicely unweighinig my recovery leg...until I got a set of PCs and saw that the recovery leg was just falling backwards. There is no way you'll do a 100mile ride of one leg drills. With PC's you have no choice. It is 100% one leg drills all the time, whether you crank, spin, sprint, stand, TT, or sit up.

Take the Powercrank 60 day money back guarantee. There is not cost to you. Return them after 60 days if they suck. This is how I got into it. I figured that 60 days was long enough for these contraptions to prove their worth to me. The only two tri companies that stand behind their product this way seem to be Powercranks and QR for their wetsuits. Funny how both these companies had to think out of the box to create respective paradigm shifts with respect to how the sport is done.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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T2, your points are excellent. There is the engine and the "wheels". In endurance sport, my heart and lung are the engine, somewhat in the realm of a Honda Civic. My legs are my wheels, the kind that go on the Civic. PC's just help me improve the transmission system to my "wheels", but no amount of improvement of my wheels will help me beat a really gifted triathlete with a Ferrari type engine !

So yes, there are alternatives, but you have to consider that we are talking about fine tuning the final 2-5% of performance, and if you start with a 130 hp engine, you might squeak another 2-6 horses out. Significant, but you still won't be able to blow by a 275 hp turbocharged model.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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<But you know where those cranks are right now...in their garage.

then borrow PC's from one of your friends.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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DP,

That is a great response and makes a lot of sense. I agree that we mere mortals are all searching for something that can help us get the extra 5% tweak on our engines! I do think this tool works for those able and willing to see it through. I also think that it is good business to give a 60 day guarantee. I also still feel strongly that drills and consistency work as well.

My goal was not to discredit the product, rather I want to point out that there are plenty of alternatives to improving technique. Many athletes that want to get better only have so much money to spend in that pursuit. PC's have been portrayed (IMO) to be the only means of making that happen. I'm here defending the "old school" of getting better that's all:)

I appreciate your constructive and logical response.

T
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Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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Mr. T2,

First, Lance. I have been told by about 20 people that Lance does use them. However, he didn't get them from me and I have no proof that he does. If I were Lance and I were using them and I thought they gave me a competitive advantage I would think it would be to my financial advantage to keep my competitive advantage secret until I had won 6 Tours or however many he chooses to stop at. If he doesn't use them, so what? Other excellent cyclists do, trying to get the edge to catch up.

Second, if your friend have them in their garage that is not my problem. If they didn't have the strength to get through the initial ass kicking and decided to go back to regular drills or whatever, so be it. How much faster are they? Why are they in the garage instead of their sending them back for a refund? Why don't you borrow a pair and see what they are all about. Seems you shouldn't need any discretionary cash to try them out in that circumstance. Then, after you have done so, then tell us about those plentiful alternatives that are just as good.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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T2. again you make good points, well stated. and, as a fellow old schooler i can identify with you, believe me. these days you can find me racng a singlespeed mtn bike which is itself older than many of the guys i race against! :) ironically, i see PC's as the ultimate old schooler tool. all they do is deliver on the ancient grail of pedalling as completely as you can. take what the crusty old fixed gear riders tell us about fixies - make it actually so thru PC's, and presto old school meets new in a painful eye opening whack of the zen master's stick upside your noggin.

mind you now, i also can see your frustration in thinking everybody is saying the "only way to get fast" or whatever is with them. altho, i do not think anybody is actually saying that. rather, i am saying that these things do, in fact, make a guy better thru incredibly hard work, and there is no drill or technique that will do what they do.

if you do not mind, i might challenge you - what is about enthusiastic positive reports about PC's that gets your goat, as opposed to somebody saying that he has triied something ELSE new and and perhaps controversial and whaddya know it works really good?

having had a set for a couple years now, i can see why and how a guy might not wish to ride them all the time anymore. i don't. i ride them all winter and in sumer i go mtn biking and singlespeeding and fixie riding and just plain ole road riding on my regular crank bike. i use the PC's for tune up rides, you might say. i reckon this is how most experienced users use them after time. i often tell my cycling buddies that they really will want a dedicated PC bike - most cyclists already have a spare anyway . . . . . . . .

finally. the cost. indeed. this appears to be an issue with you as well, and well it should. but again - how much more does a P3 cost over a P2K? about the same as a set of PC's. and yet, if somebody crows about how fast their P3 is, do you likewise take offense and decry the fact that the same guy for 700 dollars less on a p2K could go just as fast, or obtain a similar result thru other means? just askin. :)

anyway, nice discussion. my offer previous stands. put them on, ride daddy ride, and then let's hear if you still think i am wrong when i say that no amount of drills or technique or anything else will do what they do.
Last edited by: t-t-n: May 13, 04 11:54
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Rip Van Winkle] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps you have missed something Mr. Rip. Many races have been won and records broken by PC'ers. Just not with PC's on their bikes. Further, putting them in the hands of an age grouper does nothing to win races or break records. They have to be used by the very best to break records or win races. More and more of the very best are using them, some of them are even using them as I recommend.

One record of note, Sam Whittingham increased his own HPV record from 72 to over 80 mph in one year, then went over 81 the next year when conditions were worse and everyone else was slower. Then, the next year, when there was no HPV competition he set a one hour record of over 52 mph. Ok, I know, it was all aerodynamic improvements - nothing to impress you. Or Aaron Thigpen taking 0.2 seconds off the American age-group record for the 100 m dash after 4 months on the cranks. Where is the aerodynamic improvement there? And I guess all those personal records by users mean nothing.

If I remember right, the americans got killed in the Olympics the year clap skates came out because they thought they were a gimmick. Further, there was an adaption period because it required a different form to see the advantage. PC's are not like epo because they are not cheating.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I think the point people who are skeptical about the PC technology are making is that it seems like every time you open a magazine there is something new out there that will make you faster, stronger, bonk-proof, or leaner. Try this and get instant results...but you fall back on the adage "if it's too good to be true it probably is..." I don't know if PC's work...I really don't care. It's cool to read about the pros and cons of the device and to hear some first hand accounts of how it works. As an engineer I'm interested in learing about it as well. But quite honestly...it all comes down to solid, consistant training....nothing more. Buying a particular piece of equipment be it a new wheel, bike, pull buoy, endless pool, creatine max, whatever....it does no good unless you take the time and just train.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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t-t-n wrote: "if you do not mind, i might challenge you - what is about enthusiastic positive reports about PC's that gets your goat, as opposed to somebody saying that he has triied something ELSE new and and perhaps controversial and whaddya know it works really good?"

t-t-n/Frank,

I hear what you are both saying and I appreciate the fact that we are discussing this in a constructive fashion. I'm sure both of you would agree that you wouldn't jump on the band wagon simply because everyone else was. You would want to be convinced that the tool or technique you invested your time and efforts in would yield positive results. I know I do.

I have a finite number of training hours per week like everyone else. I now have to ask myself "how much time can a give to learn something new?" and "what discipline do I take that time from?". It appears to me through watching my buddies use them that they were very frustrated and trashed all the time and they did not improve. They also cycled and ran less than I did during this time. When they first got them they were telling me how great they were and that if I didn't get a pair I would be left in the dust. I kept doing my traditional (old school -:) stuff and continued to improve. Sure I wanted to give them a go at first and I am still curious I must admit. But I don't want to lose time...time is chasing all of us and I don't want to make a mistake and lose ground.

OK - since you have given me a challenge let me give you one back. How do you go about using this tool in a way that can give one time to adapt and see improvement beyond what I can achieve through traditional means without losing a race season to do so?
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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Hello. Long time reader, first time poster.

I have a background in exercise phys (BS), so I have been able to read and understand many of the arguments presented by both sides of this argument. What I suggest is that you thoroughly read some of the internet arguments between Frank Day and Andrew Coggan, PhD. You can find them by searching the newsgroups with Google, and even some on this board before Dr. Coggan stopped posting here. You might also get on medline and read up on some of the studies involving elite athletes and pedalling technique etc. You will find that there are lots of holes in the supposed workings of powercranks.

It is not easy reading, by any stretch, especially if you don't have a background in the stuff. This is to Day's advantage because his arguments seem well thought out and based in science, and he does not use much "scientific terminology", in his posts, if you get my meaning. Also, his arguments seem to be based on common sense, or what has become "common sense" because it is what is fed to us by people like Carmichael and Friel, who have basic misunderstandings of exercise phys. That is easy to do. They have books out and they seem to make sense. I mean, it was a long time before I actually said to myself, "Gee...I probably shoudln't believe this works just because someone says so." and started reading.

Frank Day's arguments are not based on a good foundation of exercise physiology, or knowledge of pedalling mechanics. That doesn't mean his cranks don't work, maybe they do and maybe because of some new mechanism heretofore unknown to science. But the research seems to show that pulling up on the pedals, or the ultimate round pedal stroke, or whatever, is not nessecarly correlated with success or strength or power or success as a rider.

Powercranks kick your ass because they are training you to do something that is unnatural for your body: overusing your hip flexor muscles. They were not meant or built to work in the way that powercranks supposedly teach you to use them on a bike. If are able to, read a little bit about length/tension relationships of muscles. Muscles are meant to work best at very specific lengths and in very specific ranges of motion. For example, knee extensor muscles (quads) were built to help you walk and run, and they work great for biking because you are using them in a range and length that are similar to walking and running. Your hip flexors are not in an appropriate range, and even when trained cannot hope to generate near the power of your quads.

You don't have to believe any of what I just wrote. Read up on it yourself. If you can use the internet you are smart enough to figure this stuff out on your own. Don't let testimonials or money back gaurantees sway you. That is the beauty of science...the ability of the human mind to make predictions and understand things based on pretty simple experiments.

I will leave with one more comment regarding the benefits of PC's., or any other supposed training aid. It is the concept of the placebo effect. In the 70's there was a study where weight lifters were given an injection of what seemed to be steroids, but were really just saline injections. The weight lifters were told that it was steroids. Other weight lifters were given nothing. The ones who thought they got the steroids improved their maximal lift by something like 15% in a week.

think about it.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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brian286. i see your point, i do.

but, this is the main reason i enjoy talking about PC's like i do - i think you are mistaken, sir. specifically, PC's are not, to me, anything of the sort of gimmick you describe, all things for which i hold an equal disdain as you.

i have 7 or 8 eight bikes up and running. only two have indexed shifting, and i just caved on that around 4-5 years ago. my off road bikes have drop bars on two of three. over half of them have 7 speeds or less, and half of those one speed. clipless pedals are not on them all. they are all steel but one and that one is an old vitus so it is almost the same. :) i do not own a working bike computer. etc etc

PC's are as simple and old schoolish and no nonsense an idea for cycling as they come, IMHO. that it took so long for somebody to come up with them is a marvel, when i think about it. for 100 years people have sought to pedal completely and to the best ability - and PC's make you do it. there is nothing remotely shortcut-ish or quick fix about them whatsoever. indeed they are the utter antithesis of that - you put them on and you suffer and work like a galley slave for things that used to breeze past you like nothing. that is what i am talking about. :)
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Brodsky] [ In reply to ]
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Brodsky, I have no intention or interest in getting involved in this discussion but I must compliment you on a well-thought out, well-written first time post. Good to have you here.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [T2] [ In reply to ]
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T2,

The cool thing about PC's is you don't have to do anything different, once you get through the adaption period. The adaption period varies from person to person, possibly as short as a week to as long as three months. Even those who have a long hard adaption period will usually see immediate results in their racing because it seems we improve efficiency faster (especially in the poorly efficient) than they lose fitness.

It is why I now offer a 3 month money-back guarantee. I got less than 5 per 1,000 back on the 60 day guarantee. I would like to get it to zero. You can't know what they can or cannot do for you or how good you are now) by listening to someone who thinks they know what they, and you, are about.

So you don't want to make a mistake and lose ground. What if the PC's are as good as everyone says. Wouldn't you be making a mistake and losing ground to all the PC'ers who started them earlier than you? Afterall, I think PC's are a 5 year project. Those who start them early will have an advantage over those who don't that should last for 3-5 years. One cannot know if they have made a mistake until looking back in retrospect.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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> but I must compliment you on a well-thought out,
> well-written first time post

Haven't you ever heard the expression: "a constipation of ideas buried underneath a diarrhaea of words"?

Still looking for something new in there ...

Dre'

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...
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Brodsky] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, Mr. Brodsky. I am surprised to find out I don't understand physiology. Anyhow. Here is the big fat hole in Dr. Coggin's (and apparently your) analysis. All the studies showing that is is not useful to pull up on the back stroke were done before it was possible to effectively train this form of pedaling. To infer that it was possible and that cyclists just choose to not do it calls into question the sanity of all the PC'ers who are now learning how to do it and like what they see.

If those studies are repeated on Powercrankers and show the same result then it will mean something. Until those studies are done, Coggin's and your criticisms are simply hot air blowing to support your biases. I am working on getting those studies done. I am not afraid of the results. I look forward to how Coggin responds to them when they are done.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Dr. Dre'] [ In reply to ]
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heh heh that dre' is a sharp fellow, eh?

to T2 and his challenge . . . . well the safest bet for what you describe would be to just wait for winter and try them out like a crazy man on the trainer or, even better, rollers. i myself got them as a very hostile skeptic and just went for broke on them in the heart of the season. the feedback on them was such that a fellow pretty much knows right away what the score is. that's the best i can say.

as for brodsky's commentary . . .well see dre's suscinct summary. :) you can talk all you want about anglular momentum this, and ideal range of that. personally i will take hard work, and new bigger muscles where none were before in direct reponce to hard-ass bike riding resulting in less effort, lower HR, more speed, fresher legs at the end of races, hills cleaned that used to have to walked, etc etc. and, not to put too fine a point on it but - placebo my ass. put in 6 weeks - shoot - 6 HOURS on them and then you tell me - is there any possible way what you are feeling is a placebo effect ? samo samo - if he knew of what he spoke he would not make that comment - - - same as it ever was - sigh.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry about that blank. This discussion is never
ending. It is claimed that Powercranks and Rotor
cranks can eliminate the dead spot area, I claim
that Anquetil's linear pedaling is the only way that
it can be completely eliminated. It would be very
interesting if there could be a showdown between
PC's, RC's, Anquetils technique, anklers, stompers
and the circular style riders.
The test could be done by each competitor completing about 1/2 K. from a seated starting position while using only one leg.
One legged pedaling can really sort out pedaling
styles and crank equipment.
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Re: Drills vs. PC's [Brodsky] [ In reply to ]
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"You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bulls ass, but I would rather take the butchers word for it"
tommy boy(Chris Farley)

Brodsky, most trigeeks could write a book on ex. phys esp. those of us who have been at this awhile. We read, study, and more than anything experiment by trial and error. We have all done 3-400 mile weeks, trained by heartrate, you name it. There is gonna come a time you plateau, and then you will take a chance on Powercranks. My first reaction to them was negative, I was trying to figure out why, and this is what I came up with. My friend got them first, dropped a lot of money, took a chance. I was bound and determined to show him that he was a fool as I wasnt bold enough to take a chance with the $$. I was jealous that he had the balls to gamble with his research. Years later, I kick myself for not jumping on then. Read some posts of people like Dev that have been around awhile, they arent idiots! So get your head out of the bulls ass and listen! (joking)
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