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Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle
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From today's Wall Street Journal. This definitely shows the benefits of drafting. In he extreme!

Unfortunately, the text is behind a paywall but the video appears to be viewable by all. Here's a snippet:

Moments before, Holbrook had driven a rattling red dragster 183.9 miles per hour across the transfixing moonscape of the Bonneville Salt Flats…with a bicycle trailing directly behind.

Atop the bicycle was Denise Mueller-Korenek—a 45-year-old former junior cycling champion, home security company CEO and mother of three from Valley Center, Calif.—and now the holder of the land speed world record for motor-paced cycling.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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She's nearly ready for IMTX!
Last edited by: trail: Sep 17, 18 17:11
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
She's nearly ready for IMTX!

You sir... Win Slowtwitch for today.

Well done.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Can't believe this post only garnered 2 replies ... the clip in the original write up by the WSJ doesn't do it justice.

This fully edited video of the journey is worth a watch. It's 20 minutes long though. They just posted it on 1/12/19

https://www.wsj.com/video/184-mph-on-a-bicycle-how-denise-mueller-korenek-set-the-world-record/5418759C-1B56-4F9A-AB90-3418A71D1F49.html

Drafting or not, I'm not a happy camper past 50+ MPH.
This past weekend I hit 38 mph on an descent with light turns and it wasn't pleasant on my tri bike.

Anyways, hope somebody else enjoys it as well.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen/heard conflicting data about the power requirements for this attempt.

Watching the video, the high/generous amounts of power and times being posted some places run afoul to the stability of that thing inside the aero shell there.

Also, the power numbers I saw quoted were on the order of men's world record pursuit power and duration OR top men's world tour leadout train power and durations. Which is total BS either way.

Really cool either way, but no need to try to mystify the attempt with weird data.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Where is the data posted, the first post is paywalled and the second link i only watched the video.

I was curious as to power requirements as well. I was going to find a gear calculator as well to see if i could get some stats on cadence
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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Chan wrote:
Where is the data posted, the first post is paywalled and the second link i only watched the video.


I was curious as to power requirements as well. I was going to find a gear calculator as well to see if i could get some stats on cadence


https://www.wired.com/story/denise-mueller-korenek-bike-speed-record-168-mph/


As I said.......bullshit despite any kind of prior background. Unless you're an active female track cyclist in kilo or sprint, that is NOT happening with this person.


"To secure the record, Mueller-Korenek—now pedaling around 110 rpm—will have to hold 168 mph between mile markers 4 and 5, where the timing traps measure her average speed. As Holbrook accelerates, the cyclist will push 700 watts for more than a minute to stay inside the draft pocket behind the dragster’s fairing. That’s about what a Tour de France sprinter produces in the final minute of a stage."
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Several things to add:

I read somewhere that she was a champion crit racer back in the day. Not pro tour of course.

I wouldn't trust wired to tell me that Sagan, Cav and Kittel hit 700 watts in the last minute. I think that's too low. I've hit 800-1000 in my own sprints. Granted for like 15 seconds.

If some TDF efforts up climbs are like 5 minutes at 500 watts, I find it hard to believe 700 for 1 minute is a sprinters output. More like 1200-1500 is my guess.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
I've seen/heard conflicting data about the power requirements for this attempt.

Watching the video, the high/generous amounts of power and times being posted some places run afoul to the stability of that thing inside the aero shell there.

Also, the power numbers I saw quoted were on the order of men's world record pursuit power and duration OR top men's world tour leadout train power and durations. Which is total BS either way.

Really cool either way, but no need to try to mystify the attempt with weird data.

Most cars that go 180+ tend to have about 500 horse power.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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Chan wrote:

I wouldn't trust wired to tell me that Sagan, Cav and Kittel hit 700 watts in the last minute. I think that's too low. I've hit 800-1000 in my own sprints. Granted for like 15 seconds.

What's being referred to here isn't "hitting 700W in the last minute" but "holding 700W for a minute". Those are very, very different things.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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Chan wrote:
Several things to add:

I read somewhere that she was a champion crit racer back in the day. Not pro tour of course.

I wouldn't trust wired to tell me that Sagan, Cav and Kittel hit 700 watts in the last minute. I think that's too low. I've hit 800-1000 in my own sprints. Granted for like 15 seconds.

If some TDF efforts up climbs are like 5 minutes at 500 watts, I find it hard to believe 700 for 1 minute is a sprinters output. More like 1200-1500 is my guess.

I bolded the key part. I wouldn't trust Wired to tell me anything, including what power she put out.

Given a rough guess she weighs less than I do, 700w for a minute or more puts her over 2w/kg over the top of the women's ftp charts. Like at 11w/kg for a minute where the chart stops at 9.8.

I'm guessing given it's only CRR that somewhere in the range of 350 or so watts was probably required. Not unreasonable for minute for anyone if you put a gun to their head.

You're not going to hold that bike that steady putting out 700w, or 500w. She'd be racking the handlebars.

I'm just betting a Wired employee google'd some bull crap and her people probably ran some crap internet calculator for some "cool" looking power.

Endura in contrast guessed/calculated some pretty darn reasonable power numbers when running the aero on the Obree hour record setups.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Chan wrote:

I wouldn't trust wired to tell me that Sagan, Cav and Kittel hit 700 watts in the last minute. I think that's too low. I've hit 800-1000 in my own sprints. Granted for like 15 seconds.

What's being referred to here isn't "hitting 700W in the last minute" but "holding 700W for a minute". Those are very, very different things.

Just saw a post from Weight weenies on stats pulled from Athens olympics.

Standing Kilo
1585 max watts
859 average watts

Peak 60 seconds 887 watts.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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It's been long enough I doubt they'd reply to the event webpage, but I asked the question "where did Wired.com get this number".

It takes power and skill, but I don't think we should confuse the motor-paced cycling record with things like UCI/USACycling/Olympic records of any kind.

The numbers often quoted with records like this one tend to blur the line between Evil Knievil kind of stuff and Graeme Obree/Bradley Wiggins kind of stuff.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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In the vid they said the gearing produced 138ft per rotation, so that would be a cadence of ~38 to go 60mph, ~115 to go 180mph...?
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [dand] [ In reply to ]
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dand wrote:
In the vid they said the gearing produced 138ft per rotation, so that would be a cadence of ~38 to go 60mph, ~115 to go 180mph...?

It's basically impossible to get going from a standstill, so they're typically towed with a physical attachment up to a pretty high speed, then released for the record attempt. That's another sort of fudge-factor to the rules. I'm not sure what portion of the attempt has to be fully detached to be a record is well-defined (but maybe it is). E.g. the fraudulent case is towing to 190MPH, releasing, staying in the draft for a few seconds, and claiming you got to 190MPH. (Which would still be scary as hell and an achievement - just hard to market as a human-powered record). Which it's already hard to market that way given the vehicle is integral no matter what.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [dand] [ In reply to ]
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dand wrote:
In the vid they said the gearing produced 138ft per rotation, so that would be a cadence of ~38 to go 60mph, ~115 to go 180mph...?

Found this on Bicycling.com write up:

Lochmiller then used a custom-engineered mount for a reduction gear that allowed a reasonable cadence at such high speeds. Mueller used a 60-tooth front chainring going to a 13-tooth cog on a Jackshaft that was supplied by da Vinci. The Jackshaft transferred to another 60-tooth chainring going to a 12-tooth cog on the rear wheel. This combination yielded the equivalent of a 204x11 road gear without the need for a chainring that would have scraped the ground, which would have been the case with a traditional chainring-cog drivetrain! This top gear was more than four times larger than the 52x11, which is the biggest gear on a standard road bike.

As for cadence, I'm not good with gear inches.


Source: https://www.bicycling.com/...ecord-breaking-bike/
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
It's been long enough I doubt they'd reply to the event webpage, but I asked the question "where did Wired.com get this number".

Wired probably got that number from Denise and her team, 700w is what they told me a few days after the record run.

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I'm guessing given it's only CRR that somewhere in the range of 350 or so watts was probably required.

I would be surprised if a set of motorcycle tires had the same Crr as a set of mid-range clinchers.

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [trail] [ In reply to ]
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For sure, it seems like a dare-devil feat more than a cycling feat. Can't imagine getting slowed down to 110mph and then let go for the wind to stop me.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
It's been long enough I doubt they'd reply to the event webpage, but I asked the question "where did Wired.com get this number".

Wired probably got that number from Denise and her team, 700w is what they told me a few days after the record run.

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I'm guessing given it's only CRR that somewhere in the range of 350 or so watts was probably required.

I would be surprised if a set of motorcycle tires had the same Crr as a set of mid-range clinchers.

So is it a gross overestimate, halfway intentional half truth, or outright lie?

That a female crit racer could hang with Sir Chris Hoy in the velodrome?

Again, that places the 1 minute power into elite men’s categories and off the chart beyond women’s world records.

Maybe instead of this they should go after a women’s track cycling world records in sprint, kilo, Keirin, etc....

The general public couldn’t care less about the watts, and you know the knowledgeable cycling crowd can smell a good one.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [Chan] [ In reply to ]
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Chan wrote:
dand wrote:
In the vid they said the gearing produced 138ft per rotation, so that would be a cadence of ~38 to go 60mph, ~115 to go 180mph...?


Found this on Bicycling.com write up:

Lochmiller then used a custom-engineered mount for a reduction gear that allowed a reasonable cadence at such high speeds. Mueller used a 60-tooth front chainring going to a 13-tooth cog on a Jackshaft that was supplied by da Vinci. The Jackshaft transferred to another 60-tooth chainring going to a 12-tooth cog on the rear wheel. This combination yielded the equivalent of a 204x11 road gear without the need for a chainring that would have scraped the ground, which would have been the case with a traditional chainring-cog drivetrain! This top gear was more than four times larger than the 52x11, which is the biggest gear on a standard road bike.

As for cadence, I'm not good with gear inches.


Source: https://www.bicycling.com/...ecord-breaking-bike/
I make 60/13 x 60/13 to be 254/11 not 204/11. I think they have a typo there.
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
I've seen/heard conflicting data about the power requirements for this attempt.

Watching the video, the high/generous amounts of power and times being posted some places run afoul to the stability of that thing inside the aero shell there.

Also, the power numbers I saw quoted were on the order of men's world record pursuit power and duration OR top men's world tour leadout train power and durations. Which is total BS either way.

Really cool either way, but no need to try to mystify the attempt with weird data.

Back in the day, Jobst Brandt commented on someone's attempt to draft a semi trailer for a long distance. He said the hardest part would be to avoid being sucked into the back of the truck, as that is what the air pressure would do. Watch a guy on a motorcycle wearing a t-shirt, and you'll see the shirt being pushed up on his back.

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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Back in the day, Jobst Brandt commented on someone's attempt to draft a semi trailer for a long distance. He said the hardest part would be to avoid being sucked into the back of the truck, as that is what the air pressure would do. Watch a guy on a motorcycle wearing a t-shirt, and you'll see the shirt being pushed up on his back.


Lol, I had to look it up on Youtube.

I think we can call the 700 watts for over a minute busted.......55mph this guy isn't even pedaling. He falls back a tad and catches up, but literally just freewheeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnYp4srEooI
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Re: Drafting to the extreme - 184MPH on a bicycle [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
klehner wrote:
Back in the day, Jobst Brandt commented on someone's attempt to draft a semi trailer for a long distance. He said the hardest part would be to avoid being sucked into the back of the truck, as that is what the air pressure would do. Watch a guy on a motorcycle wearing a t-shirt, and you'll see the shirt being pushed up on his back.


Lol, I had to look it up on Youtube.

I think we can call the 700 watts for over a minute busted.......55mph this guy isn't even pedaling. He falls back a tad and catches up, but literally just freewheeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnYp4srEooI

It looks like when he's coasting that they're going downhill.

If he's using halfway decent tires, it wouldn't take much more than 100w to go 100kph if you didn't have to overcome any wind resistance, even without suction pulling you up. So simply moving that fast while motorpacing off a semi isn't really impressive, the hardest part to me is holding a 150rpm cadence while keeping the bike right in that pocket...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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