One you are an idiot for putting WTC and Integrity together. I have not seen a WTC race without a large amount of drafting..

Tremblant is no exception. Did the full twice and saw 30 - 40 bike packs.

Also talked to at least 3 officials for 4+ violations and never saw a single penalty handed out.

>Where the pros drafting? That's all the really matters. Rest of us just have to do the best we can!

I disagree. Rules are the basis of any competitive sport, amateur or pro. The non-drafting rule is fundamental to the integrity of results in non-drafting triathlon. You don't see weekend warrior soccer players using their hands and telling everyone that the no-hands rules is only important for pros.....

Yes but in triathlon, the pro race really is the only race that even has a chance of being accurately/properly officiated because of the nature of the sport being played out on a 50 mile course. The AG'ers really are racing under the gist of it being officiated by officials, but also the idea of hoping you behave like they do in golf (self regulated).

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

BDoughtie wrote:

But because we've accepted that officiating is the only marker to regulate the results, we have this mindset that you prescribe "if they are cheating to beat me, then I probably need to cheat as well". And I'm not knocking that mindset, that's what the sport has created and/or caused athletes to feel.

I think you should knock that mindset. We all should. And every time we don't, we are the problem. Not WTC. Not the officials. Us.

I agree and disagree. I do agree that we all are the problem. Whether it's because we are accepting it, or whatever, I think the issue becomes: where/how do we fix it?

Because it's cute and all to say "drafter suck" but then when "we" back it up with continuing to support all these races that are draft fests, what are we really saying? That's the whole issue, WTC wants to say the athletes need to do a better job of self policing themselves, and the racers are throwing their hands up when they are put in situations because of poor course management. And it's become an issue that we don't really care to solve. So as the other guy put it, we've gotten to the point of doing the dirty deed, shrugging our shoulders and moving on. Who was it that said it best, complacency is probably the worst feeling to ever see because when you don't care, you wont ever get change. That's where we all have gotten (myself included...I had an athlete racing in the 70.3 WC, so I'm as guilty as others).

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I saw exactly the same thing on 117. Official riding next to a pack for 3 minutes or so waving his arms telling them to spread out. Then he drove off. I was expecting to see the penalty tents full but the first penalty tent had 2 people in it and the last one had NO ONE.

The frustrating thing is that (as I'm sure most people did) I trained hard to see how I would perform against the best athletes. Unfortunately I'll never know.

The only reason I did this event was because it was driving distance for me. I will never spend the money flying to an international destination to "race" like this.

Sadly I'm sure the Ironman brand is strong enough that there will always be enough people to fill up the field so there really is no incentive for WTC to clean up the races.

You've never taken a gimme or mulligan in a game of golf? Never taken a bit of unauthorized relief from a tree or something?

I think this is a relatively easy problem to solve, but maybe expensive...

A simple battery photoeye mounted to the steerer tube, front facing, with a timer for amount of time blocked. Setup radio on/off triggers at transition so the start recording out, then stop in. Allow some amount of time showing blocked based on event length, and if time is exceeded then there's a penalty. You can even scale it; 5 minutes of drafting = 2 minute penalty, 10 minutes = 4 minutes, and so on...

Can either be distributed at race start in packets, or (if so inclined) riders can permanently mount. Even if WTC didn't adapt, you could post your bike split with your total drafting time on any forum you wanted, allowing those so inclined to prove they raced clean. Once manufactured in qty, I don't think such a gizmo would be more than $200 or so (WAG on my part, I freely admit).

In a "tournament" or out dicking around for 18 holes in golf? How I play golf with friends, and how I play under tournament (you know the weekly best ball skins games), are usually very different. When I'm out with friends, very rarely do I putt out each hole. If I'm within the leather, I pick it up and go on to the next hole. Similar to when I'm out training with athletes, how we behave in training and how we behave in the actual competition are usually not the same. If we are out riding on 50 miles, I'd wager 98% of the ride we are "drafting".

Not sure what point you are making.

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I just don't think golf is exactly the bastion of self policing you describe it as. I think it's pretty much the same as AG triathlon. You can be as strict or loose within the rules as is socially acceptable within the particular confines of the event. I'm sure there are plenty of guys at those tournaments who, if they thought they could get away with it, would gladly take a little foot iron from behind a tree to save a stroke.

If the marshalls caught anyone that could have been challenging a top 10 because of drafting - all that matters.

It sucks that others were drafting, but so does diving in soccer, pulling helmets in soccer, spearing in hockey, etc. There are only so many officials.

Your the 1st person that I've ever heard of that has described golf's integrity as that poorly. I would not agree with your assessment at all. Again are you describing how people play in their weekly golf outing or actual "real" golf situations (weekly tournaments, etc.). I have to ask, do you actually play golf and how much have you ever played in your life? I've never seen the rampant cheating even at your local weekly best ball 9 hole outings with your buddies. I don't think many would agree with your characterization.

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Sadly, when in europe the situation is even worse. I've done 3 LD WC events in europe, and the spanish and french peletons came by with a moto escort! I think as the WTC moves these races to foreign countries, they will see the US support and continent dwindle (not all bad), Euro rules will apply and the race will so totally different.

I think many are right that we need to stand up and demand rule changes, and as least enforcement. How best to do that is tough, as peer pressure doesn't seem to affect today's athlete, and WTC really doesn't show any evidence of caring.

I am a recreational player. Charity tournaments, that sort of thing.

I'm not saying golfers are cheating, I'm saying they would cheat if they could get away with it. Except the guy you're with is watching you and if you were to engage in all sorts of shenanigans I'm sure he would call you on it. I don't think golfers are any different than any other hyper-competitive folks. It's just that the pace of the game makes cheating virtually impossible, so it's easy for them to talk about "code of honour" and "self-enforcement". The reality is, you walk or ride around with 3 other referees who can see exactly what you do. In big time tournaments, there's a whole gallery (and sometimes even a whole world if its on TV) of referees watching these guys.

You think there would be drafting in triathlon if there was a video feed of the whole race and anyone who watched it could call in a drafting foul, even after the race, and it would be enforced?

I wasn't surprised there was drafting, I haven't been to a WTC race where there wasn't drafting no matter the location or number of entrants. What was surprising and disappointing was the lack of the ref's doing anything about it other than waving their arms. Ridiculous. If no penalties are given, there are no repercussions and the result will be more of the same. I'm simply asking the ref's to do their job and hand out the cards. He was there, the pack was there and nothing was done.....therein lies the frustration and disappointment. If there are consequences, people will think twice about doing it the next time the opportunity comes up but with no consequences, more draft packs will form. Drafting will happen in every race and excellent points made about the quality of the people coming on the course at the same time as well as the layout. Nothing we can do about that, I'm asking for accountability for the ref's, something we all need to speak to whenever we get the chance (before the race, after the race and during the QA at meetings). It won't go away, but hopefully seeing more cards given out will help. I saw ZERO people in the tents at WC which is why I'm hot on the refs.

BTW, I did Calgary this year and they specifically announced that anyone with a penalty would not get a spot to the WC. That caused a stir and I loved it, that is more like it. I was in one of the first waves in Calgary so can't speak to packs, but up front, there wasn't a single instance of drafting I saw and it was an entirely different and fun experience.

I've had one penalty before in a race, a 70.3 in May. Our wave was the very last one, 2000+ competitors and after 15kms I hit major congestion. People on mountain bikes, people on old road bikes, people riding 3 abreast - a complete clusterf*ck. I understand the drafting rules, but was not sure how to handle this. I was sitting on 35km/hr, you had the mountain bikers on whatever, the old road bikes on 25km/hr, then guys slightly quicker overtaking them slowly at 28km/hr. I was loathe to slow down even more to maintain the 12m, sitting on their ar$se waiting for them to overtake, so I could then overtake them... Probably a bit of naivety on my part and also I think the TOs could do with using a bit of common sense -they should have been able to figure out that I was getting zero benefit sitting behind someone with a pot belly on an old 1980s road bike... The 6 minute penalty hurt though, it's a big chunk of time when you've trained hard and got a set time in mind. If the TOs start aggressively pinging people, the drafting will stop in a heartbeat. TBH the TOs seem pretty vigilant in Australia.

^ this

As a later wave we saw the packs on the 117. Huge packs with a moto at the end, so they saw it but didn't call it
One moto rode up to the guy ahead and screamed to him that he wasn't 7m. But no card

There were lots of officials on the course. I have never seen so many so it wan't a manpower issue.

I would love to hear Jimmy's stats on how many penalties were given out. I saw 1 guy in the tent so I am guessing very few.

Agree with you... there is a certain arrogance I've noted on this forum and this is an example IMO. I've never seen a peloton like what he saw or encountered one in a race. Most I've seen is a handful of riders or someone asking me if I'd like to "work with them" as I'm passing them. I've heard/read about drafting packs but experiencing them first hand would be a different story. There's a huge difference between drafting for 56 miles and solo pedaling it. I know I'd be frustrated, especially if they went by me like I was standing still.

If the officials and race staff aren't interested in enforcing the rules of drafting, sounds like something that will just continue. That sounds like the case here.

Yeah it was insane. I really regret having raced. I should have stayed local to Boston and done Pumpkinman. I feel like that race was a waste of fitness.

I'm pretty impressed/surprised you rode 2:11 on 3.7 w/kg (not making accusations - I know you're a strong athlete - just more questioning my own setup). Is your weight accurate in TP?

I rode 2:19 on 291 np (3.83 w/kg), on a giant trinity w/ disc cover, 80mm front wheel, giro a2, conti 4000s w/ latex tubes, and fairly aggressive position. I was in the first ag wave though and rode out 117 alone into the headwind. I got swallowed up on the return, sat up for awhile to let the pack go, put in an attack on the longish climb on 117, got swallowed up again on the out and back in St Jovite, sat up and let them go again, and then was finally able to ride through the majority of guys again in the last 10 miles on the crazy climbs from miles 45-50.

Do you think you benefiting much from slingshotting since you were in a later wave?

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

I think that was a big difference for you and me is that you were in the first wave. I had a lot of athletes in front of me that I could slingshot off of. I didn't see a ref till 30K and then not again till 70K. I got frustrated a few times with the groups, did the same thing you did and got swallowed back up. The only thing you can do as an athlete that has integrity is go to the back of the group and sit 7 meters off and just wait for a marshal / ref to show up. The only thing is you have to be aware what is going on at front of the group and if a few riders go off the front then you have to make the decision to go.

I don't think my bike split to W/Kg is to crazy for me. I have what I consider a great position, courtesy of David Wenger out of Austin / Durata Training. I put a lot of time and thought into the bike build, but have not been in the tunnel. I biked a 2:11at Vineman last year which I would say is a fairly similar course, little less elevation gain, but crappier roads. I was also on the "Old P3" then.

So TP's does W/Kg off of AP, so off of NP I would be around 3.9-4.0, not sure exactly where I was in terms of weight on race day. What was your power in those last 10 miles? Where was your peak 20-30min power?

---

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Ah okay, that makes sense. I was doing my own w/kg off of np. And yeah while I know my setup is solid, I'm sure there's a few watts to be saved with the better frame, wheels, and potentially better position.

The other thing - and I think you touched on it there - my power in for the last 10 miles was also only around ~290 np. I'm not sure what it was for the climb vs the descent, but I didn't have an easy enough gear, and I felt like I was grinding more than I should have been, and consequently putting out less watts. So it would make sense that there was a lot of time to be lost/gained in the steep uphill section if you were really pushing.

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

slingshotting is the dirty little secret of the later waves of a 70.3. People like to say, "wow, I only biked 10min slower than the top pro", but really they're benefitting from a huge draft. Worse is when they say (and I've done this too), wow, I biked 2:20 at a tough HIM and only 5min behind "X" pro, that means I'll be only 10min behind him at the next IM, giving me a 4:45 bike split.

I've almost always been in later waves and my bike times have seen the benefit. Like Brad, I'm usually passing (although not so fast!), and it really helps. I'm sure his times will suffer at first when he turns pro.

you know, when you get swallowed up there's no crime in sitting in at 10m. You don't have to sit up and let them go.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I just went in and looked and it was 292AP / 304NP for that last section. I had an 11-23 on, wasn't the plan but I think it actually forced me to ride some of the sections harder than I would have.

Of note, I also wore a mid/long sleeve Castelli Stealth top, and I also put on knee warmers in T1, along with toe covers, and gloves.

---

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

If the officials and race staff aren't interested in enforcing the rules of drafting, sounds like something that will just continue.

________

Let's also add, the racers don't want to ride clean. With drafting it's a 2 way fault here.

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I raced on Sunday, too. I was in the third to last wave. I saw three big packs. One pack was so big it took up a 1 1/2 lanes. What really made me mad about the drafting was, I saw a marshall go by without breaking them up....when I passed the penalty tent there were four women in there. I'm not saying they weren't drafting but there's no doubt there were plenty of men drafting, too!