I agree. However not everyone lives here on the forum.

Completely false. WTC is widely accepted as the de facto championship series of the sport. It is not a great championship model and has fundamental flaws, but the global events draw the sport's best athletes, all of whom are attempting to earn their place in the respective WC events. If you attempt to argue that, you are simply naive.

IMO - drafting is only a big problem because of the sheer number of people that have very similar abilities. You cant put that many talented competitive people out there and not have a problem. I have never experienced big issues in any other race other than WC's. I tell my athletes to never be part of the problem - but also not to try to be part of the solution. I have come to expect it at WC races so it doesnt bother me anymore. Hope you enjoyed your day out there today. Cheers Michael

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

So then the question becomes what are we racing against? Is it ourselves and we feel good if we ride "clean" and with our time or are we racing for place amongst our peers and we need to take allowable advantages?

If you're racing solely for yourself, ride clean and feel good. Easy.

If you're racing to beat the guy next to you, how can you not draft because he is and the ref's are calling the game that way? I think of football where the officiating crew might be particularly sensitive to pass interference calls one game and in another game, they'll "let 'em play".

Drafting is essentially the same thing. All sports have this issue. You've never watched basketball and thought the shooter was/wasn't fouled and the ref got the call wrong? Never saw a pitch you thought was a strike but the ump called ball 4? The guy definitely deserved a red card in soccer.

So the guy(s) should be called for drafting but he wasn't. As long as it's not getting called, you adapt and give yourself the same, apparently equal, advantage everyone else racing that day has.

Now 30 people all doing it is different than pass interference in football but still goes back to playing to what they're calling that day. Crazy as it may be not to bust 30 people.

I am going to acquit myself from these claims w/ this: http://tpks.ws/MG28

It was ridiculous out there....................

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Tomorrow I will post my race report. I think there were elements of the drafting that were worse than Clearwater. But those of us who know the course (I have done all three 70.3's in Tremblant and all three 140.6's) know that if you put that many age groupers between 3.8W per kilo and 4.4 W per kilo on the course, there is not a single hill in the first 70K that is steep enough or long enough to break things up naturally, so then you need more motos. In a regular 70.3 or Ironman, being a 4 - 4.2 W per kilo rider, I can ride up in the top 5-10 in my age group and largely solo. But at 70.3 world's you have 100 guys like me were are in that position in their local race.

I actually had an excellent discussion post race with both Jimmy Riccitello and Yann Therrien the head official for Triathlon Quebec, and also with Marc Roy on the limitations for road closures and wave spacing. I am too tired to share all the details now. There are many things that could be done on all sides to improve things, and it is a bit of everything that adds up to make things bad. In the end, athletes have to decide for themselves how they want to race. The choice is binary...get the race you deserve for your own fitness and let fellow competitors fly up the road on other wheels, or fly up the road on other wheels and have a better placement.

No surprise, I chose the "let them fly up the road on other wheels". More to come tomorrow.

I am too tired to share all the details now.

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Your not going to tell us anything "ground breaking" from your talks. WTC will excuse it and say they are trying and for us to look at how their number of motos compares to other race companies and all that jazz. You'll probably tell us that racers need to do a better job of not bunching up, they are limited by the wave spacing, blah blah blah.

Until a race company AND athletes want to be serious with drafting, we'll continue to have these same issues, same conversation just a different race venue. There is nothing new to be said, I don't want to hear from the RD and officials. X race with Y number of athletes makes zero sense, and we are all up in arms over drafting. I don't even blame WTC anymore, they are just catering to what you the athlete want. If you don't give a shit about drafting, why should they, this is after all a business for them.

ETA: There are a ton of things everyone can do. But what I don't get is, then why aren't we doing them? As I've said in the past, JimmyR is probably doing all that he can do, but when I hear that they took 2 or 3 official motos and turned them over to the media, anything else that comes from said organization is simply PR fluff. Don't tell me what we can do, do it. I had some great conversations with USAT and Charlie their head official like 6 months ago, and it comes down to the athletes demanding better race officiating and then the RD's will have to answer to why they aren't doing more. Of course for WTC, they have their own officiating crew, so they fall under their own branch. But the same thing applies. If athletes told RD's they weren't going to sign up until more officials showed up and actually BOYCOTTED WTC races, they'd make changes in a hurry. Just like athletes would change their behavior if officials handed out 450 immediate DQ's for drafting. Of course they wont do that because then the officials would be so gun shy to actual call drafting, it would become an farce.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Also depends on the country where the race is. For age groupers at U.S. WTC races, as well as the 70.3 WC at Mont Tremblant, the draft zone is 7 meters, 4 bike lengths. So you'll need to correct him again. (It is 12 meters for the WTC pros).

I too am very disappointed in many racers. I know the majority would prefer not to cheat, but it is way too tempting.
Our egos get in the way. I can sleep soundly at night knowing that I didn't cheat. On another note....
How come the penalty tents are empty? When the drafting was so obvious and there were many officials
on course.

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Proudly sponsored by Orleans Cycles, Turbo Cranks, and the csdceo

Yeah it was bad, although I think a lot of it was unintentional course congestion. This is becoming more and more an issue at every WTC race. I got stuck behind this pack of 200+ people that took up the entire road, as far as I could see at times, and I simply could not pass. The other people at the back/behind that group were pissed off and did not like the situation. I finially had to launch an attack up the right shoulder on the long climb at 50k to get away.


On the other hand, there were lots of smaller groups of 5-20 guys that were blatantly pacelining when they had plently of room to space out. I had one group that I tried to pass repeatedly, but they would just organize the chase and swallow me up a few minutes later. Thankfully I did see these guys get hit with penalties, but its still disappointing that people come to this race and make the choice to cheat. I guess Clearwater set the "its OK to draft" precident and now its considered what you need to do to win at 70.3 worlds.



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Only in the US do some get so folks up over this hobby. You play a sport, you play by what the race and official "give" you.

When I was at Edmonton, I was fully prepared to do whatever the race gave us on race day to compete. And if this had meant lots of drafting, well guess what, I would have taken what was given. Turned out with a great race course with hills, turns etc., outstanding breaks between waves, and lots of moto's it was an amazingly clean race. I can say not once did I ever have a chance to consider drafting. (My slow bike times probably helped a lot).

But if I were in one of these draft fest races, and I had trained and paid to compete, I just smile at folks that say they are just going to let the draft packs go by them. For the few who get all mighty on ST, great.

The issue is not Jimmy. It all starts with what type of race course the RD puts together, period.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You guys clearly didn't get the "draft legal race" registration when you signed up....

Seriously tho. I saw an official waving a card at a female pro who seemed to be fine when I went by. Yet I saw a official pacing right next to a draft pack without saying anything... I'm glad I needed 20 watts higher just to put myslef in any contention.

There's drafting at WC races? Wow, big surprise? How do you think these people get there? There are races out there where you have ZERO chances to qualify unless you get on the train. I don't buy the "more rides of similar ability either". I've been engulfed by 20-30 rider packs at 70.3 Miami and you can let them fly and do an honest 2:30 split or join the pack, see your power drop 80W and your HR go to 100bpm and just sit there on your bullhorns doing 25mph. It's your choice... I chose to race an honest race.

So why was it not such a problem in Vegas? I thought that race was the best I had seen, especially after Clearwater.

From what I gather a lot depended on when you were on the course. Did it improve, absolutely but there were still drafting trains out there (especially in 25-29 groups).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Well it didn't seem to be the outcries, and I saw very little. The roads were also so open, no excuse that marshals couldn't share the road. I thought that venue was awesome. And fair.

That was my question as well. It was my first time at the WC and I pretty much knew some drafting was going to happen. I just kept repeating to myself that I do this for fun, if I finish last my family still eats, and to not let it get to me. The first three packs I actually put in some strong surges and got clear but by the time I hit the turn in Labelle I knew that this strategy wasn't going to work if I still wanted to run later that day. Plus at the turn around I also got to see what was coming up the road and it wasn't pretty. So from then on I just let them go-they are generally moving so fast that I didn't even have to soft pedal very long until clear of the draft zone out the back so I felt at least this strategy I could just stick to my power and do my own thing, know I gave an honest effort and just try to make my goal times for the day. As hard as I tried to shake it off it was pretty demoralizing to slide from 25th back to 87th AG, and then coming up to an empty penalty tent on 117 didn't help. In the end I put out exactly the avg power I was looking for on bestbikesplit and came in within 40sec of my predicted split so I gave myself a pat on the back for an honest days work and went out to see how many of them I could run down! In the end it doesn't matter as my 1:27 run isn't going to get me anywhere near a podium spot even with the top swim-bike combo in the race - does it really matter if I am 30th or 50th? My wife didn't leave me, and my kids were happy to see me when I got home even if dad is not a world champion.

Every athlete has a choice, for me it is more important for my kids to see an also ran than a cheater. If having the recognition of being top 3, top 10 or 20 in your age group is worth doing whatever is necessary, have at it. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't bitch about having no choice, the pack just 'swallowed you up' and you couldn't get clear. You can always get clear - either HTFU and go off the front and see how long you can go before they catch up again while hoping you still have legs for the run, or sit up let them ride off into the sunset. I guess the alarming thing to me is the guys that totally admitted to riding in a pack the whole way because 'everyone was doing it, you just can't compete if you don't' - sound familiar?

Still, it would have been nice to see them actually handing out penalties, at least giving the honest riders the illusion that they actually give a rat's ass!

You play a sport, you play by what the race and official "give" you.
____________

Except that works when your a sport that is played actually in front of officials (team sports lets call it). However that isn't the case for triathlon, as I'm willing to bet for AG'ers, they are 90% of the time "alone".

ETA: If that is your stance, then yes I do fault the officials for doing a piss poor job of "officiating", especially when I hear they took 2 or 3 motos away from the officials and gave them to media. That tells you all you need to be about WTC's stance on their officiating. So if your telling me that athletes should race according to how it's officiated more than what the rulebook says, and yet rarely are athletes actually in front of the officials to be officiated, then we will never get rid of this problem.

So I guess just do what you seem to be implying you do at races and if it's a pack, jump in it and if you get caught, you get caught, if you don't, you don't.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Thanks for the info.

I see many others observed crazy packs as I did. Which wasn't unexpected, given other races I've done. What was unexpected was how empty the penalty tents were. I was in the 25-29 wave, starting right in the middle of the whole race. I expected to see the penalty tents overflowing. I saw one guy in the tent. What did others observe? There's drafting in Kona but at least the tents are full. There's some penalty risk. But when there's blatant packs, officials go by without giving penalties it just reinforces that cheating is okay. Which is contradictory how they hype it up in the athlete guide and "mandatory meeting". Actions speak louder than words and WTC isn't backing up many of their words. I'm sick of this crap. Where's the thread/list of non WTC races offering quality competition? What should I support next year? Opinions much appreciated.

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Ben McMurray
Northern Michigan Small Farm Venture ---> http://facebook.com/hillvalleymi [/size]

i started in the second-last wave and am not a good cyclist, so had relatively empty roads :-) when i was going north, I saw four people in the tent around 45km. saw one person in the tent when i came back south. didn't look at the second tent before T2 at all.

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run well, run happy
george

I am saying most folks who come on here and get on top of the mountain and say they have never drafted is ...

And I am guess for most of these they are not good enough to get on the podium anyways.

I have yet to have the opportunity at a race to join a draft pack. I do not do flat boring courses. I pick the hardest biggest hill bike and run courses I can find. This is how I can kick butt, from folks with either lack
of training and or poor choice of gearing and get rid of the time trial flat course stud bikers.

But if I was at a key race, and there were draft packs, and that is what the RD put in place, I have learned to never say never in life. I would rather be honest than ...

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But if I was at a key race, and there were draft packs, and that is what the RD put in place,

_____________

This is where I feel the sport is lost and a lot of integrity has disappeared because the sport wants it both ways. The sport by it's nature simply cant regulate athletes during races. Sure maybe they can attempt to at like 1-2 "world championship" events, but take your local 40k bike in an Olympic. It's just too wide and far reaching for there to ever be consistent and fair officiating. But because we've accepted that officiating is the only marker to regulate the results, we have this mindset that you prescribe "if they are cheating to beat me, then I probably need to cheat as well". And I'm not knocking that mindset, that's what the sport has created and/or caused athletes to feel. The issue I have is that we are trying to regulate it like team sports that occur in front of the officials for 98% of play (it's easy to regulate when the field of play occurs in a nicely compact 100yd x 50yd field), yet we are more like golf (courses cover so much ground and terrain) in that honestly, you are/should essentially your own official. But because we are governed by officials in a race, if they let you get away with it, you will push the envelope and get away with it. So essentially, we are a sport that's basically set to fail more times than not.

Officials will get on their soap box and say "you need to race clean", but then not really back it up with much officiating, so it's a bit of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If even a few of these folks who bitch would be saying they are also officials, then great. But so many bitch and give nothing back to the sport. My wife and I help at like 30 years a year. Folks see me out there all the time.
So an easy improvement is Charlie is so flooded with folks who want to be officials, that they can get on ST and bitch that they offered their services and the RD's did not want to pay for officials, or more officials.
There are many solutions. Why do some folks not stand up and put some of their time where their emotions are. But no, folks will just complain and not try to help improve things.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Except for this court settlement:

"ITU hereby acknowledges and recognizes that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or a "self-declared" world triathlon championship within the meaning of any applicable ITU rule or policy."