time to put on our Bad Ideas jeans

I am sure someone is already compiling suspected drafters based on Strava data. I have SloMo HD video evidence of huge packs coming into T2.

Yeah I was there at T2 and didn't quite put it all together why there were just large packs of folks showing up instead of people coming in more sporadically . . . .

I predict:

How does strava data prove (or disprove) drafting? Is it dealing with the segmented sections and the corresponding time for each segment?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think it is flvbys? You can watch in real time via trackers where 2 people rode at any given time. The closer you zoom in the closer you can see how closely they ride together. I am not sure if it would be accurate enough to get a true measure if they were within the defined zone, but I know many use it as a reference point.

Everyone loves a good witch hunt.

love the thread, but I think you're gonna have to have photo or video to prove drafters

Ah ok didn't even know that feature. I use the feature to pull segments from workouts that I have athletes do, didn't know it showed position, etc. Would be cool to see in bike races with sprint finishes etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It won't work because you can't tell who was the lead and who was drafting. Plus, Strava AND every single Garmin out there AND the recording settings AND post processing of the data should give a result with a precision of much better than 1 second because a 10m distance between 2 people riding at 36 km/h translates to only 1 second in time. Or 1.08 seconds for a 12m gap riding at 25mph.

What about looking at watts vs speed vs cadence. That could give you an idea if there was some drafting going on.

The draft zone is so much smaller than the precision of Flybys and the data that feeds it. You could never draw any meaningful conclusions with that approach, but you could post a whole ton of false positives. slowman will lock that down faster than you can say "Rule 5.10 (b)!"

Not sure what you expect to get out of cadence - do drafters ride at a different cadence? Watts could only reasonably work if everyone used a powermeter. And uploaded his power data to Strava. Otherwise Strava power estimates assume the person was riding by himself so the number would automatically clear any rider.

https://twitter.com/...s/991327843425701888

nice idea. but we're not going to be doing this.

there are, for sure, scofflaws out there on the race course, who just have bad moral character. but i think there were a lot of folks who aren't morally bankrupt who were caught up in those packs because of the nature of the way those packs form.

so, best in my view to ask yourself how and why those packs formed. if you do this, you're much more likely to get to the root of the problem.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the best you could pull off of strava is to look at those maintaining 23+ mph with a lot of power/cadence drops which would indicate coasting within a pack. FinisherPix, at least for me, will not help anything. I had 5 bike photos that looked like they just did a burst of pics so they are all basically identical. Nothing at all out on the Hardy.

well theoretically a rider riding his own race should have steady power to the pedals the whole race, ie steady cadence. someone who's not pedaling a lot of the time is obviously benefiting from a draft. But it would still be impossible to tell if they were riding at legal distance in aero bars or sitting up in the middle of one of the pelotons. That's why you're gonna have to have photo/video evidence of someone in the middle of one of those packs.

I think Monty's angle was the best....30 guys sitting up in a picture, and he flipped the context to, "All these guys need a better bike fit" LOL :-)

Would athletes have to give the "data" to officials? HR/power/data isn't that private? IE, how would that become public for the officials to know and/or use to determine cheating?

Yes I know many events use pro's data to show anaylsis, etc we see TdF showing the cadence or power for certain riders and every year in Kona TP immediately shows the data off the bike during the run, but how would IM get the data from each AG athlete? And if you did't have a garmin?

I like the analysis, I'm just not sure how it can be used successful in races at a broad AG level with 2500 athletes on course? Does that make sense?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thank you. The OP was idiotic.

DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

The technology is available. The implementation of the technology is the real issue. It's possible (Anything is Possible... to steal and IM theme). Drafting will always occur. To expect it to go away is not realistic. The first step is to require a data file from every Kona qualifier at a race. (I support a drug test for every KQ too but that's a different topic). Certain courses will be harder to implement and detect b/c of course elevations and turns. Courses like TX and FL should be a little simpler to detect. Just knowing that a file will be reviewed would help keep athletes honest when marshals are not there. Texas got out of control as soon as it was evident that there wasn't a penalty system in play.

Another solution is to implement a technology within the chips. You ride within X distance from Y rider for Z time then you get busted.

Again... Technology is there. I fear the desire to implement isn't.

I guess that's what I was getting at. The technology is only there if it's input includes cooperation from the athletes. So I would think any type of plan would need to be much more independent of athlete required input. (Even if it's likely a very good process). I would just think requiring athletes to turn in data would receive a lot of negative feedback and be a likely time consuming process. Not saying it's bad process, just that that would be a huge hurdle to overcome.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Tell me the dynamics of how someone who, presumably, does not want to draft, gets "caught up in those packs."

This upstanding citizen is riding along at his/her own pace/wattage, and gets passed by a faster group of cyclists who are drafting in a pack. Did the rider up their speed to maintain wattage, given the draft effect? Not very upstanding, and chose to join the pack. The upstanding citizen would maintain their speed, let the pack go by at their faster speed, and enjoy the free rest period while remaining totally legal.

This upstanding citizen is riding along at his/her own pace/wattage, and comes up on a *slower* group of cyclists who are drafting in a pack. Did the rider slow down to join the pack? Not very upstanding, and chose to join the pack, instead of maintaining speed at a lower wattage (free!) and passing the whole group.

Or is this a matter of yo-yoing by the draft pack such that sometimes they are going faster than the upstanding citizen would choose, and sometimes faster?

I thought the packs form because riders choose to go faster than they would have absent the passing riders (i.e., they draft).

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"Go yell at an M&M"