time to put on our Bad Ideas jeans

I am sure someone is already compiling suspected drafters based on Strava data. I have SloMo HD video evidence of huge packs coming into T2.

Yeah I was there at T2 and didn't quite put it all together why there were just large packs of folks showing up instead of people coming in more sporadically . . . .

I predict:

How does strava data prove (or disprove) drafting? Is it dealing with the segmented sections and the corresponding time for each segment?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think it is flvbys? You can watch in real time via trackers where 2 people rode at any given time. The closer you zoom in the closer you can see how closely they ride together. I am not sure if it would be accurate enough to get a true measure if they were within the defined zone, but I know many use it as a reference point.

Everyone loves a good witch hunt.

love the thread, but I think you're gonna have to have photo or video to prove drafters

Ah ok didn't even know that feature. I use the feature to pull segments from workouts that I have athletes do, didn't know it showed position, etc. Would be cool to see in bike races with sprint finishes etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It won't work because you can't tell who was the lead and who was drafting. Plus, Strava AND every single Garmin out there AND the recording settings AND post processing of the data should give a result with a precision of much better than 1 second because a 10m distance between 2 people riding at 36 km/h translates to only 1 second in time. Or 1.08 seconds for a 12m gap riding at 25mph.

What about looking at watts vs speed vs cadence. That could give you an idea if there was some drafting going on.

The draft zone is so much smaller than the precision of Flybys and the data that feeds it. You could never draw any meaningful conclusions with that approach, but you could post a whole ton of false positives. slowman will lock that down faster than you can say "Rule 5.10 (b)!"

Not sure what you expect to get out of cadence - do drafters ride at a different cadence? Watts could only reasonably work if everyone used a powermeter. And uploaded his power data to Strava. Otherwise Strava power estimates assume the person was riding by himself so the number would automatically clear any rider.

https://twitter.com/...s/991327843425701888

nice idea. but we're not going to be doing this.

there are, for sure, scofflaws out there on the race course, who just have bad moral character. but i think there were a lot of folks who aren't morally bankrupt who were caught up in those packs because of the nature of the way those packs form.

so, best in my view to ask yourself how and why those packs formed. if you do this, you're much more likely to get to the root of the problem.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the best you could pull off of strava is to look at those maintaining 23+ mph with a lot of power/cadence drops which would indicate coasting within a pack. FinisherPix, at least for me, will not help anything. I had 5 bike photos that looked like they just did a burst of pics so they are all basically identical. Nothing at all out on the Hardy.

well theoretically a rider riding his own race should have steady power to the pedals the whole race, ie steady cadence. someone who's not pedaling a lot of the time is obviously benefiting from a draft. But it would still be impossible to tell if they were riding at legal distance in aero bars or sitting up in the middle of one of the pelotons. That's why you're gonna have to have photo/video evidence of someone in the middle of one of those packs.

I think Monty's angle was the best....30 guys sitting up in a picture, and he flipped the context to, "All these guys need a better bike fit" LOL :-)

Would athletes have to give the "data" to officials? HR/power/data isn't that private? IE, how would that become public for the officials to know and/or use to determine cheating?

Yes I know many events use pro's data to show anaylsis, etc we see TdF showing the cadence or power for certain riders and every year in Kona TP immediately shows the data off the bike during the run, but how would IM get the data from each AG athlete? And if you did't have a garmin?

I like the analysis, I'm just not sure how it can be used successful in races at a broad AG level with 2500 athletes on course? Does that make sense?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thank you. The OP was idiotic.

DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

The technology is available. The implementation of the technology is the real issue. It's possible (Anything is Possible... to steal and IM theme). Drafting will always occur. To expect it to go away is not realistic. The first step is to require a data file from every Kona qualifier at a race. (I support a drug test for every KQ too but that's a different topic). Certain courses will be harder to implement and detect b/c of course elevations and turns. Courses like TX and FL should be a little simpler to detect. Just knowing that a file will be reviewed would help keep athletes honest when marshals are not there. Texas got out of control as soon as it was evident that there wasn't a penalty system in play.

Another solution is to implement a technology within the chips. You ride within X distance from Y rider for Z time then you get busted.

Again... Technology is there. I fear the desire to implement isn't.

I guess that's what I was getting at. The technology is only there if it's input includes cooperation from the athletes. So I would think any type of plan would need to be much more independent of athlete required input. (Even if it's likely a very good process). I would just think requiring athletes to turn in data would receive a lot of negative feedback and be a likely time consuming process. Not saying it's bad process, just that that would be a huge hurdle to overcome.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Tell me the dynamics of how someone who, presumably, does not want to draft, gets "caught up in those packs."

This upstanding citizen is riding along at his/her own pace/wattage, and gets passed by a faster group of cyclists who are drafting in a pack. Did the rider up their speed to maintain wattage, given the draft effect? Not very upstanding, and chose to join the pack. The upstanding citizen would maintain their speed, let the pack go by at their faster speed, and enjoy the free rest period while remaining totally legal.

This upstanding citizen is riding along at his/her own pace/wattage, and comes up on a *slower* group of cyclists who are drafting in a pack. Did the rider slow down to join the pack? Not very upstanding, and chose to join the pack, instead of maintaining speed at a lower wattage (free!) and passing the whole group.

Or is this a matter of yo-yoing by the draft pack such that sometimes they are going faster than the upstanding citizen would choose, and sometimes faster?

I thought the packs form because riders choose to go faster than they would have absent the passing riders (i.e., they draft).

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

If you go to Strava and look at Segments that are part of the course, you see a lot of folks left their full data up even though it seems to indicate they were drafting like a mofo. If you average 25 mph over 20 miles on a flat segment with no discernable wind on less than 180 watts (PM measured, not calculated), you're either a hella-biker munchkin with a tiny frontal area, or are drafting. When the heart rate data shows an average in the low 130's, you can be pretty certain it's the latter.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

can we go back to posting pics of Moats?

Agree. Implementation wouldn't be an overnight fix. If left up for the athletes to turn in a file it would just be a matter of time before cheaters would hack a file together somehow and cheat the system that way. Batteries would magically die once they found a pack to run with or some other non-sense. WTC has the $ to invest in a technology solution that's independent of athlete input. Every athlete already wears an ankle timing chip. Tweak the chip technology or provide a tracker that attaches to each bike. That would help 'live tracking' for family and friends too.

The video evidence and injuries from Texas should be enough to force an improvement. It's not right for anyone involved. It's not just a KQ issue. It's an issue for every athlete and their family and friends that sacrifice so much to have a clean as possible race.

those who've been racing since the early 80s have masters degrees in how those packs form. bad swimmers who're good cyclists sweep through the field picking up riders.

i don't know how it was in texas, but typically what happens, historically, is that the pro women get caught up in those packs. and i mean, basically, almost every single one. virtually every competitive pro woman. so, if you're going to get high and mighty on me, be prepared to call 4 out of every 5 pro women out as amoral cheaters.

at a certain point you realize how this dynamic works, you recognize the sorts of races, and courses, and race organizations, where this is likely to happen, and you make your choices at the point of race decision rather than during the bike leg. if you wait until after the race and you decide to start calling out the folks in these packs, you've waited too long, and you're spending your virtue dollars unwisely.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I honestly feel the easiest solution to add in is using drones + officials on the ground. Now I dont know the details of doing that, but that to me is the far easiest way to get ahead of this problem that can use pretty simple costs. The old cop trick that X cop gets your speed and radios to Y cop 2 miles ahead who to pull over for speeding and Y cop is the one who gives the ticket.

I think that's likely one of the more *easier* solutions I've seen. Hell they can give an entire "group" a stop and go penalty, I dont. Just something that starts to break up the packs, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Because IM has done nothing to address this issue in the past, and because there has been no response from IM re IMTX, I’m all for extreme measures like Name and Shame. Or boycotts of IM partners to get leverage on the issue.

I’m not sure I understand what answer I will get if I ask myself why or how drafting occurs. When I try to parboil it like that, I keep coming up with “people are shitty.” But I don’t think that is what the exercise was intending.

it doesn't prove drafting, but if you look at cadence and power (when available) you can get a preetttty damn good idea of when someone was not riding solo.

A million years ago, when I got my first Polar power meter (the chain tension type) I was talking with a student of mine (I'm a corporate trainer), who was an engineer and roadie. He had a powertap and, was mentioning to me about how often he'd be riding in a pack and his power would effectively be zero at 25mph. He basically said pack riding with a power meter was "interesting" but not really meaningful. Since I have always trained alone the conversation was enlightening, and, completely foreign. Unless I'm descending, 25mph is serious power, cadence AND HR. Having the benefit of a draft before a marathon makes the ride a really long warmup (pink, kinda). Looking at bike splits, usually, you know that the slower swimmers and really fast bikers were not drafting. The times at IMTX make that separation more difficult because there are so so so many fast times.

BTW at Kona last year I had a decent swim and a terrible bike, and for the most part saw good behavior of riders as they passed (and passed and passed) me. Especially given the nature of who (mostly) KQ'd to get there.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

How is that info going to become available. I guess that's my point to the "data analysis" angle. Unless your saying that garmin/power data is now going to be required by athletes + give up that information to said race officials.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm more wondering how it's going to be legislated in to actually get the data from athletes to then make it pretty easy to determine drafting.

ETA: And then if your very first statement is true "it doesnt prove drafting".....then is it viable option to then make everyone give up the data if that step actually doesn't "prove" it?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

it's available to anybody when a strava athlete's profile is public. i'm not saying you use the data for anything other than personal enjoyment. it will never be used for anything serious. but if you're curious about a friend of a buddy's bike split and it seems too fast to be true... check strava.

Instead of all these complicated methods of identifying cheaters, which will no doubt have a lot of 'false positives', etc., I have a much better, more simple idea.

Lets put, say, 10 officials on motorbikes at each 70.3 and full IM race. They make their way around the course and hand out penalties in the form of time. Make each athlete have an identifying number somewhere on them, maybe on their arm, or even their helmet, for the official to write down.

Has that ever been tried?

That sounds way too complicated? How will these "officials" make appropriate notes of which athletes were penalized? How could they ever determine if someone is actually violating a rule?

No, no, that would never work.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Ah, gotcha!!! I still think taking some drones and looking for bike packs is probaly the easiest solution in addition to proper officiating w/ motos.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You don't have to up your watts to stick to a draft pack. Your wattage once they gobble you up will more than suffice to get pulled along. I had this happen twice. Ironman Canada 2013 (the year with 100+ Kona slots) and IMFL 2013.

IMC 2013: The Pemberton flats was a draft heavy for the "swim<1:10 and bike<5:30" crowd. I rode my watts and kept getting sucked into 15-30 people pelotons and couldn't shake them. I pulled off twice, as in literally stopped at aid stations, to let them all go ahead. It's not fair that I had to dick up my race just to let them get far enough ahead so that I wouldn't get sucked into their draft. Had I stuck to my guns and rode my watts I would have been in a draft pack the entire Pemberton part of that bike course, which was 34 miles, until we hit the mountains again to break everyone up.

IMFL 2013 I was in the "swim<1:05 and bike<5:00" crowd and I could not shake the draft packs that formed on the return trip south on 79. This time I chose not to stop but to just ride my ride. What happened is that I'd get sucked into a group, and either get dropped because they were hammering or I'd get to the front of the group because I'm riding harder than all of them, get sucked in again, get dropped or pull ahead, rinse and repeat. Some packs eventually pulled away. Some I dropped. I was never in the "middle" of one for very long but there were certainly times I was drafting per the definition. I didn't want to, didn't intend to but it was unavoidable at times. There were a couple of motos/officials that kept patrolling that area that did a good job of carding those that were wheel sucking at every opportunity versus others who weren't getting in the mix on purpose. I had at least four brief conversations with one particular female official about two groups that kept yo-yoing around me. She would yell at them and warn them to break it up, and then circle back around a few minutes later to ding the few that didn't listen.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

If everyone on this forum and LetsRun all took the amount of time they have spent in their life on wild time consuming projects such as this and put that time toward a more productive project - we would officially have a cure for every disease/condition known to man (except for stupidity of course)

I know you are joking, but I'm not sure they could have policed the Hardy Toll Road well. For the first 20 miles prior to the toll road there were tons of marshals. I had a marshal in my view for most of the first 20 miles and they would drive up to a pack ahead of me and the pack would slowly break up. I did not see any penalties given but many athletes put on the brakes.

But once on the toll road there was not enough space. They could have gone down towards Houston on the far right, but there were too many people and no clear lane for them to come back up. With no crosswind or hills of note there was nothing to break up the packs. They got large enough that 10-12 meters back was still a draft you could feel.

It was dangerous as well, I saw more crashes than any other race I have participated in. I do hope everyone was ok.

Never seen anything like it, not going back.

The math of speed, time, and distance belies saying it's some kind of passable random occurrence.

If you were even just 3min slower on the swim, but caught that person on the bike......that's a mile at 20mph. Further at more speed.

Meaning, you made up at least a mile on them in distance in about an hour if you're doing 21mph. That's 1.5 ft/sec gain on the person.

So, when said slow swimmer catches slow cyclist......in one minute they'll be 100 feet away.

I'd buy the explanation if you only had a 15 foot wide path to pass on, like a greenway trail. That freaking highway they were on was so freaking wide you could land a jumbo jet on it.

Give me a freaking break (not you, just in general). You can't ignore math and logic.

i'm not telling you how it oughta be. i'm telling you how it is. slow swimmer passes cyclist who doesn't want to be passed. and speeds up. these two catch a third. by the time you're at cyclist 5, 6, 7 the fact that the fast cyclist is stronger doesn't matter, because those in back are getting the draft. and on it goes.

so, your math is great if no cyclist ever changes his velocity. but that's not human nature. you may argue that the person who gets passed is not forced to change his velocity; nor is he forced to ride in close proximity on a course with a lot of width. i'm telling you what actually happens, not what should happen.

so, you say, i'll let the pack pass me and go to the back, and dangle off the back. but other honorable people think and say the same. so, pretty soon a bunch of you are dangling off the back. more or less together.

i'm not going to get all righteous on you. i'm just saying certain things are predictable. you can blame the racer; you can blame the race organizer; or you can just not do those kinds of races and then you don't have to make the decision of whom to hate.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Heh, exactly. These threads are pretty far off base. The drafting occurred because the typical deterrent was not present on the course, not because it is ineffective. Even if the motos don't give out penalties, their presence alone is enough to break up the packs. Hell, if I were the race director I would pay local random moto folks to just drive around the course in orange vests to impersonate officials.

Bottom line is they need to change the course. Or just do away with the event all together and move it (I vote resurgence of the St George full), if the community won't support a championship-level course.

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Strava

I agree, even the deterrent is effective.
And has been mentioned before, you can even have the 'undercover' bikers on the course, especially if there is not room for motos..
At Mont Tremblant, where I've never seen big packs, they still had the penalty tents full of riders, had motorbikes on course, as well as undercover bikers. In 2016 when they had heavy rain and a bad crash on the downhill, the race director himself went out there and stood in the middle of the road getting people to slow down on that section. Maybe the Texas organizer should take notes?

Basically, you are saying that they are all cheating, and willfully so. Anyone who gets passed by a faster cyclist and speeds up because he/she "doesn't want to get passed" is a cheater. Period. Pretty sure I'm human, and I've never done that in a race. Human nature?

Dangling off the back is the smart way to race. If a pack gets together there, then they have made the decision to draft and cheat.

Tell me how those pro women got "swept up" by the faster male AGers. Were they just following "human nature" and found themselves drafting?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I think his point has some validity whether he's high and mighty about it or not. Nobody "gets caught up" in a pack. They either choose to stay with it or they don't. Pro or amateur.

The draft packs at the Pemberton flats were horrible when there were no motos around. I couldn't imagine an entire race like that. As a rider, you just have to try your best to stick to your race plan. That might mean yo-yo-ing with a pack a dozen times as their speed changes.

No excuses should be made for those in a draft pack. Pro, KQ or MOP AGers are all accountable to follow the rules.

Drafting seems to be seen the same as speeding in your car by some. Yes it is breaking the rules, but everyone else is doing it and we get there a lot faster, so what's so bad.

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Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour

no, i'm not saying they're willfully cheating. that's what you're saying. i'm just relaying what happens. and, while i haven't read it, i think there's an account by a pro woman who DNFd because of this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Don't be silly.

The reason the course is what it is because a certain county commissioner would not allow the bike course to go through his precinct any longer. So the course from 2011-2015 is not coming back and there aren't many feasible options around The Woodlands that don't extend into areas that no longer wanted the race to go through it. If it wasn't for Harris County stepping up there probably wouldn't be an IMTX anymore.

Do away with the event? It has sold out every year and is one of the most popular of the North American IM races. What freakin' sense does it make to shitcan a race that sells out every year with somewhere near 3000 registrants for one that was canceled (St. George) due to lack of people willing to do the race?

The community couldn't care less about whether or not the course is "championship-level." The community only cares about the financial benefit and traffic impact. The difficulty of the course is of little concern.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my response - I was narrowly addressing the tactics around controlling drafting, not whether WTC actually cares enough to do something about it. See below for revised.

"Bottom line is they need to change the course if their goal is to control drafting."


I agree with your points re: selling out, but don't underestimate the bad PR that resulted from this race. I have never seen this many AGers on FB upset over draft packs - that is usually relegated to the dark corners of this forum.

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Strava

I agree that the course, as it is now (along the Hardy), is one giant piece of shit. You'll get no disagreement from me there.

I don't think the bad PR is going to move the needle much. The race is still going to sell out.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

May be the people who's looking to go after these witchhunts should volunteer to be a marshal for free this way IM has. The ability to make sure nobody is drafting in any section of the bike course!

Yell me that nobody has ever thought about that, you know who you are; always trying to shame people as if it was your right!

Go work for IM as a marshal & do it for free so this way we can all know how dedicated you are to making IM races draft free again.... what was that, yeah that's what I thought!

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

Just legalize it, already.

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***

I'm with you Ken. The minute a passed rider does not drop back the required distance, they have made the choice and are guilty. The women learned quickly and use this often from my observations. Cheating is cheating....

There are many races where pro woman do not draft, nor the majority of other riders, so not having motos enforcing racers seems to move many racers from abiding competitors to non-abiding competitors. I think it's pretty telling (and sad) how many people will become non rule abiding competitors, when they are not being watched. Anyone saying they were 'caught up' in a pack for an extended period has chosen to cheat. I can see being caught up briefly (a few seconds here or there), but for any extended period is a ultimately a decision to cheat, and probably similar to professional athlete mentality that feels they need to 'level the playing field' with performance enhancing drugs.

Based off the transit videos of the race, it does appear that there were quite a few clean riding athletes in the segments shown, lots of open space, and then large packs. Some athletes chose not to draft, and others chose to draft. I think WTC saying they will use the race for world's best is salt in the wound to a non-drafting athlete, if the cheating athlete attained a worlds best time while drafting. I think WTC should only use world's best times for races or a population of a race that actually performed and followed the rules of the race.

That being said, does anyone know if they checked any athletes for doping or any bicycle for mechanical doping at this championship race?

Pretty sure there is usually a large amount of bitching every year about Florida.

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Interestingly the same could said the recently canceled Timberman 70.3.

(Not that I think they should cancel it. Kills me that they canceled Timberman. Still no explanation why)

I would absolutely love to volunteer next year in Texas on the bike course, but the fact doesn't change that the road does not warrant for the moto official to be out there.

The lack of integrity of the people in the sport knew that there was no way the officials could be out there with how big of a cluster the bike course was after the pro men/women came through the first loop. It felt like the wild wild west out there.

Was the course boring - yes. But I knew it was going to be a heads down time trial this past weekend. Just didn't expect the TT to become a team TT.

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IG: NCGregory8778

THIS ONE SAYS IT ALL 25.2mph on 168w for 72 miles after catching the group.

thanks for sharing. bummer for the non-drafters and drafters alike.

The other data to look at is the dude's times from 17 to 18 who did it both years. 25-35 minutes faster on the bike, then run times are similar. Hmm.

I did it in 17 and drafting was not rampant at all, I swam 1:13 and rode 4:49 so I would have seen it. The course is unique in that it on a freaking highway, and I kind of enjoyed it. It was almost surreal. That said, this year I would have gone from 1st in m AG(45-49) to 24th, so I probably will choose Placid or Whistler next year to be safe.

I have never had to make a choice between drafting or not being able to compete, not sure what I would do to be honest.
FLA has a rep for drafting but last year I swam 1:07, rode 4:45 and did not pass any packs at all and virtually nobody hopped on my wheel.

What happened on Saturday was horrible but hopefully an aberration. Call me crazy, but I bet nothing so egregious happens again.

If they threw 80 Kona Slots at St. George back in the day do you think they would have had more people sign up? Would Texas still sell out if it had only 40 slots? I hope we can all agree that maybe this Texas course should not be the "Championship" course. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they moved it to a course that was as difficult as St. George was.

Agreed - this was my first time doing Texas, however have raced Florida twice, and been on the bike course and spectated for the last two years as well. I have seen a group here and there on Florida over the years, but nothing like this. Also generally used to split up after the first 30 miles or so. The groups that I tried to stay in front of and ended up watch them pull away towards the end were full of people that I doubt have ever ridden sub 5 in other races. I'm by no means on the level of some of you guys on here but I rode 4:45 with a VI of 1.08. To say I burned matches is an understatement, and was pointless to even try against these dudes.

I will say there was one bright side of the day. Watching these guys who passed me on the right and could barely hold a line try and do a u-turn on Hardy before we headed back to T2. 30 something triathletes doing a U-turn at the end of a race (even though we know the effort was low) could of only been made better with benny hill music playing.

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IG: NCGregory8778

From my Strava feed...

First half - Avg. Power 165W Avg. speed 23.5
Second half - Avg. Power 140W Avg. speed 23.8

Helluva negative split :)

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What's your CdA?

i would feel precisely as you feel about me, if i really said that and if i really felt that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It wasn't the North American Championship race in 2013 or 2014 and it sold out those years, when it moved from Texas to Mont Tremblant.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Picture can be deceiving. That video though, 😮

It works just fine at other races.

Did you know USAT officials at USAT races have to have 4 descriptions of an athlete and their violation.

For example...
Number
Bike Color
Jersey Color
Male/Female
Etc

Not easy to write down on a notepad on the back of a Moto. Yes IM is different, but there is always more to it then meets the eye.

Couldn’t you easily dictate through an in-helmet mic? It is 2018 after all.

What if in venues like this where is a lot line steppers they created a different wave like how spartan race does ex: elite wave(PROs & alike) competitive wave (sanction just like PROs) then the famous open wave where anything is valid this way you don’t have to worry about the drafters and only the competitive wave is eligible for KQ slots!

I don’t know, just throwing stuff up there to see if it sticks!

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

https://www.strava.com/activities/1537693212


That's the example file he's using haha. It;s a from a coach of all people, great look for the sport.

This thread is so WOKE. In the bad way.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

We’re all old white guys here, you’re gonna have to tell us what that means.

Can anyone on here truly look themselves in the mirror and say they've never drafted?

Sorry long day. Fixed it.

This idea reminds me of golf:

https://www.google.com/...ules-infraction-golf

Wasn’t a good look for golf so they changed it up:

https://www.google.com/...luencing-events/amp/


Probably wouldn’t be a good idea for triathlon either.

I really need to improve my aero - for the hardy Northbound segment - I am 17 sec slower on 70w higher... !

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____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Glad I’m not the only one that doesn’t understand his bro speak.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Just make drafting legal for ironman races.

Maybe this will help. Maybe... "Although an incorrect tense of awake, a reference to how people should be aware in current affairs."

Thanks Urban Dictionary.

Looks like it had been removed? Can't see it.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Looks like it was deleted after he got flack on twitter about riding on Hardy road with 150 watts... he did defend himself but still removed the file. I guess I too could've finished 5th AG in M30-34 on those watts... Maybe next year!

I saw another strava from a front end AG, 24.9mph@179Watts.. He does not weigh 100lbs.. I would say most of the front end AG, kona folks, use a power meter. AS above, starting to see strava posts being removed.

I'm looking for a .csv of 2017 and 2018 full results, i'd like to pull out the folks who raced both years and look at the deltas. I saw an AG, near the front of my AG, that road almost 40min faster this year. Would like to generate some data if i can get all the source? Anyone?

I see he has now changed his Strava to ‘request to follow.’ Won’t mention his name per Dan's request. I looked through some of his rides on there the IMTX was something like 24.9 mph on 176 Watts. He did two 70.3’s last season, they were hilly bike courses and his averages for each were something like 220 and 230 Watts to go 22.5-22.9 mph.

What really cracked me up was a local shoe store replied to his post on getting a KQ with this “Must have been the sprint-distance draft legal racing that got you ready”

Presumably in reference to a local series he did that they were involved with. But the irony of it is quite thick. Haha

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Matt

yeah, he started realizing the comments coming in weren't just his athletes congratulating him and made his whole account private

for shits and giggles we should start requesting to follow him

yeah, that leader board is hilarious. It's either 300~ watts or less than 200

Based on how you wanna roast those individuals on here makes me think that that the bike course should in deed have more officials... I mean you can't have it both ways where you want people roasted for drafting and not necessarily want to be a free Moro official during the bike because "the course doesn't warrant it"

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

Yes there is a slew of races coming up where you won't have to worry about the drafting issue.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

It’s like telling people not to draft on the highway during rush hour. I would love to have 6 car lengths to myself.... it just does not happen. If you are a statistically average biker there are hundreds of bikers on the course who will be riding within one mile per hour of you for the whole 112 miles.

Not sure what your point is here. If there was one official on the course that would be more than what there was all day.

Also not sure if you raced this weekend or not - but the drafting looked more like a zombie apocalypse than anything.

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IG: NCGregory8778

I never said I raced nor did i say that there were any officials... my point was that trying to shame people isn't right & if you feel like so.wthing shouldve been done then anybody to wants to shame these drafters that they could easily become a free bike marshal so that these draft packs don't form is you're that adamant about people NOT drafting!

I get it that it looked like a huge "gaggle fock" out there but is shaming people the next best option, this is my point! Volunteering is free, I can't imagine that a RD would be like "sorry fella I much rather not have extra moto officials on my race to allow for drafters to brake the rules"

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

Might want to re-read my post.

1) I said I would love to volunteer at Texas (or any other race) to make sure that the race is fair.
2) I was simply commenting on the fact that I wasn't sure if you raced or not, and providing first hand experience of how bad the draft packs truly looked compared to other races.
3) I am not shaming anyone - where have I posted a bib number or picture of anyone? I am simply adding to the discussion that is taking place on the thread. I have plenty of bib numbers I distinctly remember from this past weekend, but in all honesty it isn't worth the time since most of these people knew exactly what they were doing.

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IG: NCGregory8778

Klehner I could only handle reading your nonsense on every thread for so long. Congratulations on being the most ethical person on Slowtwich.

I raced Texas. Yes I was swallowed up by a pack (multiple times, by the same pack). It went down pretty much exactly as Dan spelled out for you, at least in my case. I'm not one to speak for others or comment on anything I didn't witness firsthand.

I'm not a FOP swimmer, got out in 1:03...292 overall. With a rolling start and minus the pros way up the road, say there were roughly 250 people in front of me. It was pretty wide open for the first loop. There were 4 of us riding legal, going back and forth for a while. Eventually a pack came and ate me up. I was riding the line of the road when one guy passed, then 2, then 3, after the first couple they don't ease in front of you, they cut right in front of your wheel. Each time I would drop back, and drop back, and drop back etc. Eventually they began to pass 2 and 3 wide at a time, sometimes passing on both sides of me. Again drop back multiple times until I am the last one off the back.

Here is where it seems confusing for you. I am now 6 bike lengths off the back of a 30-40 person group. I am in a RACE. I want to beat these people across the finish line, because that's the whole point. Once I am off the back I'm not sure what you suggest. I would like to continue competing at this point... it is a competition. 6 lengths off the back of a peloton feels pretty fricking easy, I'll tell you that. I was not happy with the situation either. I trained to hard too long for this BS. With the next person up the road 6 lengths ahead of me am I riding legally here in your opinion?? Breaking and letting 40 competitors fly by is stupid racing IMO.

This was the cycle many times over. I'm 5'10' 142lbs every little bridge or incline (and most aid stations) I would fly by these guys with very little to no increase in effort. Then I would give a little effort into the pedals and find myself off the front finally clear of these morons, usually the same couple stronger riders would gain ground on the pack here too. Same thing would happen again anywhere from 5-20 minutes later they would come roaring by. passing and cutting in one after another.

I am a quiet person, but became very vocal, lots of 4 letter words. When I would drop back to 6 lengths they obviously considered that more than enough room to squeeze in. I began to ask them as they passed me on the left "you're not going in this gap are you?" half the time it worked, and they tried to go up to the front of the train (with 100% failure rate, they never made it... clogging up the road). half the time no response and they still cut right in.

Coming into a hill while passing a bunch lined up like a team tt - I said to one guy (whose number i wish i could remember he rode a purple specialized and spoke broken English) "some people would call this cheating" as i motioned to his wheel literally 5 inches off the other guy's rear. I made it a few bikes ahead on the road when I feel a hand on my back, while I'm in aero bars mind you, the guy slaps my back, I'm now the 3rd bike wide as he comes between me and his paceline, nearly knocking me into the cones and on coming riders. Big dude staring at me, he said something I can't understand then drops back.

This nonsense happened the rest of the ride, finally got clear of the pack for a big chunk of the ride after the 2nd turnaround for a bout 16-17 miles, until they screamed by one last time before the exit from the Hardy Toll Road.

24.2 avg the first half of the bike
23.6 avg the second half of the bike

I've never raced with power and 'coincidence or I left my HR strap in Chicago' - I did. I raced sick as a dog and was more focused on packing my neti pot.
bib 1899
4:34:29 split

I tried to remember too many bib numbers I forgot them all after the marathon. All I remember is #703 rode an upstanding clean race, first class!


Dan

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"It's nice to be great, but far greater to be nice"

Unless it cost you a Kona slot, who cares what they do??? I race my race. If I finish 15th or 25th it’s all the same. I’m racing the clock not the other people. It’s all about me. I don’t give a rats ass if others cheat. They are the ones that have to live with theirselves.

If that’s the goal... then you’re trying to beat people. You ARE RACING THEM.

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"It's nice to be great, but far greater to be nice"

This argument is frequently made but the reality is we all have different personalities. I don't have a single trophy, medal, award etc that I have received. My diplomas are in box and not even in the original case that it was presented to me in. However, we are all different. Some people do care about whether they 50 or 51st when there is nothing material in difference between them. It is just the reality of life and we all value different things. However from a societal perspective, cheating just breeds more cheating. Regardless of whether someone is affected or not by the cheating, cheating affects us all as whole and that can be bad.

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Stupid idea! How’s that going to help the drafting problem?

This is going to happen when you put 2700 athletes on a pan flat 2 lap course with no moto officials on a one day race.

Make the bike courses more challenging and split the race over 2 days. Or focus the draft busting on the FOP AG’ers.

Competitive people will take every advantage they can especially in a big race such as an ironman. It is the responsibility of the race to catch people breaking the rules. This happens all the time in sports. Do you think that because it is against the rules to hold an offensive lineman wouldn't every play if he wasn't getting called for? I played somewhat high level baseball as a pitcher back in the day. If I could scuff up the baseball with no worry of being caught to make the ball move more I would have all day long.

Kevin Moats - Ironman Hawaii 1993. He passed me on the way out to Hawi somewhere glued to someone's wheel! :-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Slowman wrote:
[

i'm not telling you how it oughta be. i'm telling you how it is. slow swimmer passes cyclist who doesn't want to be passed. and speeds up. these two catch a third. by the time you're at cyclist 5, 6, 7 the fact that the fast cyclist is stronger doesn't matter, because those in back are getting the draft. and on it goes.

so, your math is great if no cyclist ever changes his velocity. but that's not human nature. you may argue that the person who gets passed is not forced to change his velocity; nor is he forced to ride in close proximity on a course with a lot of width. i'm telling you what actually happens, not what should happen.

so, you say, i'll let the pack pass me and go to the back, and dangle off the back. but other honorable people think and say the same. so, pretty soon a bunch of you are dangling off the back. more or less together.

i'm not going to get all righteous on you. i'm just saying certain things are predictable. you can blame the racer; you can blame the race organizer; or you can just not do those kinds of races and then you don't have to make the decision of whom to hate.

^^^^This^^^^
I was "caught up" in a draft pack in Ironman Florida 70.3. I don't know where they came from, I'm a slow swimmer, I started in the back half of the swim. The fast, competitive cyclists should have all been in front of me, as it's a one loop bike course. I was passed by 1, 2, 3 wide. They cut in front AND in back of me. Just like that, I was in a pack. I didn't want to slow down, there was someone on my wheel and I thought there was a chance they could take me out if they hit me. Fortunately, there was an aid station ahead. I got out and dropped back. About 500 yards outside of the aid station, there was a bad crash from the middle of the pack. I don't know if the riders who went down were in the pack or were just being passed. They were a swervy, unpredictable bunch and I hated it. After that, there were no more packs. The crash must have spread them out.

It’s like telling people not to draft on the highway during rush hour. I would love to have 6 car lengths to myself.... it just does not happen. If you are a statistically average biker there are hundreds of bikers on the course who will be riding within one mile per hour of you for the whole 112 miles.


As Dan Empfield hinted at, this is not a new problem (Drafting). It's been an issue in bigger races since the early 1990's. And as race fields have become bigger in the bigger races, and the middle of the pack type of triathletes more equivalent in fitness, and more competitive, it's only become worse.

It's a problem of numbers and physics and also one of philosophy and behavior.

It's been clear for a long time that, at certain times or a lot of times, the volume of athletes on the road at a given time is overwhelming the no drafting rules. There are too many people, in too short a period of time, on too little space of road. Look at the Pro races these days - here, the problem has been more or less solved. They have a separate start. Field size has been constrained (40 - 50 athletes). They all get and respect the rules. It's actually a beautiful site in the mens race at Kona - 30+ guys all lined up in a line with exactly 10m between them. A 300m long legal peleton! Not so with the AG races - again too many athletes, in too short a time, with too little of road to work with!

You can go on and on about the rules all you want - the drafting still goes on. They tried playing super hard-ball with the rules about 15 - 20 years ago and having mass DQ's (100's of athletes) at IM races, and found it was not good for business. More recently, it seems to be a turn-a-blind-eye approach. Until they severally limit the field size (impractical), or make every bike course insanely hard (also impractical) we we going to have what we have today. As blasphemous and crazy as this sounds, I'm all for them scraping the No Draft rules, mandating road-bikes only, and allowing drafting. People will figure it out.

On the philosophic & behavior front Dan touched on a few things. Here's a few more. The bike leg of a triathlon is a strange beast. It's raced head-to-head on the road, using time-trail like equipment, with some of the rules for road time-trials employed. Are you still with me? Some embark on a triathlon bike leg and seem to think they are in a true solo ITT - but they are sharing the course with hundreds, thousands of others, that they are racing head-to-head with on the road. Others, look upon it all a bit more strategically, pushing the envelope here and there when they can - things like sling-shotting, are fully legal in the AG ranks - employed smartly this can be a big fully legal advantage. While others blatantly abuse the rules, and treat long portions of a triathlon bike leg, like a group ride!

It's a mess!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Here is a histogram from the 58mi check of how many athletes where passing through each second.



12m takes 1 second at 43km/h, meaning, at most, 2 athletes should occupy the same second (1 passee, 1 passer within the 12m zone)

I also pulled the first 500 athletes from athlete tracker into a spreadsheet so you can cross reference athlete names with where the big groups occurred (sort by Column E in the spreadsheet) -- downloadable at

https://alancouzens.com/...MTexas2018splits.csv

Of course, within the high density period, it's entirely possible that one or 2 guys/gals is riding legal as the big group passes but, when you see the same names cropping up in repeated high density periods across the checkpoints, esp when some of those names have already appeared in this thread as very fast time off low power, the evidence starts pointing in one direction.

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Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com

Thank you for this. I cross referenced every guy that finished ahead of me, and all but one was solidly on the wheel of someone (often the same person and always with the same group) on nearly every timing point.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

I'm with you, Fleck. I don't see a logical alternative.

Thank you!

Pretty disheartening to see friends and people I know who are top athletes resorting to blatant drafting...

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What's your CdA?

Fascinating to see 25 people get off the bike within 20 seconds (around 12:25).

Also - where is the prince?

Wow, thanks. Very bummed to see what this is telling me.

3000 people who ride outdoors maybe a couple dozen times a year and have near zero bike handling skills riding in tight packs 50 to a few hundred strong?

What could possibly go wrong?

Thank you Alan

I’d quit doing tri if drafting on the bike became legal

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Matt

If this is done, there will happen the same thing as in professional biking courses, but also with agegroupers. You have one person for whom to work. You take a team of 10 (or 50) people who all swim at least as fast as this one person. Lets just say this one person drafts in the swim. Then for the bikeride, the team does a team time trial keeping the one person out of the wind. This person does thus not have to do a lot of training on the bike. He must then do the work on the run.
So first of all, the winner is going to be a good runner. Secondly, if you do not have a team around you, you will never have a chance on a hawaii slot.

Thanks to everyone for the support. Sad that there is a need to play 'armchair detective' but there clearly is...

Also, per the interview/other thread, I want to give much respect to Sam. All of the later checks looked a lot like the following, with Sam and a couple of others out in front of a huge pack of multiple athletes on the same second (& the same thing in the surrounding seconds).

While obvious, it needs to be said that it takes a whole lot of strength (of both legs and character) to pull that off & not get overtaken/'swallowed up' by the pack. #Respect

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Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com

So first of all, the winner is going to be a good runner. Secondly, if you do not have a team around you, you will never have a chance on a hawaii slot.

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How often times is an IM athlete not a good runner now? How often is it a strong swim/biker who then "holds on"?

As to your 2nd point, you can easily sit in on large group pack. It's not as if they'll put a stick through your spoke. They may try and "drop" you but it's not like you will not benefit from the pulls from other teams/riders, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Haven't we all experienced the same phenomenon in your car on the highway? You stay in the right lane because people in the left are going faster than you want to and you end up stuck going slower than you want to. The combination of the number of cars and limited space removes your ability to drive your car completely independently. You end up being part of something bigger. I think a similar thing happens in overcrowded races.

I don't get stuck there, not because I don't use the right lane, but because I look forward enough to anticipate slower traffic, and move left well in advance to pass. Once past, I move back to the right lane. There are plenty of reasons why this isn't a reasonable analogy (no speed limit on the bike, no drafting rules in a car, etc.), however.

Packs form in triathlons because people who are overtaken choose to take the opportunity to go faster on the same watts, rather than maintain their speed on fewer watts. That's why you see plenty of people with much faster splits than their norm, and not so many with slower splits than they might have done.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Who actually wants to spend their free time (witch) hunting for cheaters? I know I’d much prefer to watch the paint dry on the wall, wash my hair, pick my nose ... c’mon, really.

It’s up to the race officials to enforce the rules. If they can’t be bothered to do it and it bugs you - don’t give them money and participate in those races.

And I'm sure at some point in moving left and back to the right you made some adjustments to your speed to fit in. All analogies break down (you forgot to mention cars use gas and bikes don't and they have 4 wheels instead of two and sometimes they're trucks with even more wheels), but your brilliance and superiority is duly noted so there's that.

I don't draft. I hate drafting. The point is that too many people in too small of an area is going to create a problem. That problem forces you to choose to go faster than you've earned through training (drafting/cheating) or slower than you've earned through training. (dropping off the back of one or more packs). And if everybody drops off the back where do they go?

"Brilliance and superiority is duly noted." Why the snark? I gave a reasonable response to you, and you come back with snark? I try very hard to maintain the same speed when highway driving by being an active driver, watching what's going on ahead of me and behind me.

Nobody "drops off the back", unless the people who just passed them suddenly slow down. The people who passed them were going faster, so there is no need to slow down. At all.

Packs don't form by themselves. People form packs. The reason you get too many people in too small an area (other than coming out of transition, for instance) is because people draft, instead of dropping their wattage to maintain the same speed they were going, and letting those who are going faster just go ahead at their faster speed.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Packs don't form by themselves.

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I think the most anyone can hope and expect in all of this is that the racers race fair and the races themselves do everything they can to also officate the race as fair as possible. When only 1 is doing it's job, it's going to make it a tough day for everyone.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's a shame that racers need officials to keep them from cheating. Such is "human nature," as Dan said (without explaining how those pro women got sucked into these packs).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Then go back to racing with 200 people

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Would be interesting to see how many KQ'ers fell into the high frequency sections of the histogram. Guessing from CPT Chaos' post, I'd wager there are at least a couple where the answer is "quite a few." The other interesting data point is that (at least from what I could tell, although didn't plot it), the bunching is a lot less in Column H for some of these suspect groupings - which I assume is near the finish. This seems to negate the "packs couldn't help but form" argument and suggests that the packs - when not way out on the course - realized they should disaggregate for appearance's sake.

Also skewing that data is the fact that two of the loops, which were passed over twice each. were are at the turn arounds where riders naturally bunch up.

If you looked at top 10 to 15 AG finishers in the large/fast AG's (basically M25-50), you'll find the answer to be a very large percentage of them, and across multiple timing mats.

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