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Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike
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Disc brakes are here. We can debate why they're here and whether they should be here and whether we are all going to be slower for it -- actually, that we are going to be slower than an optimized rim braking equivalent is not a debate unless you are an industry insider or an imbecile -- but there is no argument that the rim-brake era is all but over.

Here's the thing about disc brakes -- they are fantastic, but for four reasons I don't foresee myself ever racing a triathlon on them unless wet weather is all but assured and the race is one I could drive to:

1) Disc brakes are slow. Or at least, they are slower than rim brakes. The smartest folks I know peg the aero difference between a P5-X as spec'd and a P5-X "de-disc'd" at 5-7 watts. This is even supported by people who are leading the disc brake charge, who will only concede such things privately. Assuming I can get a proper disc in the back and a Profile Design bottle cleanly in front of the head tube, there is likely not a faster bike for me on earth than the 2011 Cervelo P4 thanks to a combination of exceptionally low weight and best-in-class aerodynamic design. Peak aero...until now, when the industry is actually taking us backwards in both aero and weight.

2) Disc brakes are highly sensitive to configuration and prone to inexplicable brake rub, especially in inclement weather, even after the most diligent setup. This is not problem on a mountain bike, but if it happens to you in the middle of the race on the road, you might as well just stop. I cannot stand this rubbing thing on a TT bike, and while I never got a single hint of rub on the Andean, I've had routine misalignment on my Exploro and Strada. On the Exploro, I couldn't even get the thing to center without filing the paint on the stay so that the caliper could sit totally flush. Madness

3) Disc brakes are a pain to travel with to races. Rotors need to be TSA proofed (removed and wrapped in four layers of bubble wrap) and then invariably you lose those little pad spreaders and you have to go through the process of centering. Any time you have hydraulic hose it impacts your ability to cleanly disassemble the components of the bike for compact carry.

4) Flat changes would be 50% worse with disc brakes. Rear flat would be a 6 minute rather than 3.5 minute ordeal, which in my age group is the difference between losing five places and ten. And then afterwards of course you brake will be rubbing (back to point 2). Bonus points if you get chain grease on your hands and on the rotors and contaminate the system so your bike sounds like an aortic elephant every time you actuate it, which is every revolution because it is still rubbing.

So my solution is as follows: find my forever TT bike and ride it for the rest of my life in limited use cases (races) where it makes sense, and then keep it in the stable once I get an aero bike with rotor-based braking -- in my case, this will be the forthcoming 3TTT assuming Vroomen and SuperDave give us P4 and not Parlee geometry. I don't know which forever rim-braking bike is for me, but I've loaded up with some strong contenders and will eventually choose the rim-brake bike that performs best across all use cases -- then I'll sell the rest to someone who didn't get the memo that those brakes are over even though they are in many ways actually better.

How will you manage the transition from rim brakes to disc brakes and does the concept of a forever TT bike make sense to you? Have you found yours, or is that a hopeless task? Should the peformance minded or bourgeois among us just have two bikes forever? What about the proles -- can Premier offer a single Tactical that can be swapped between rim braking and disc braking / road and triathlon with quick disconnect hydraulics? Can Ventum offer a proprietary disc braking platform that is superior to both the incumbent and emerging systems in the market?
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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No / Yes - rim brake.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Nothing to add other than a response to something in point 2,
I would always assume paint to be an irregular surface and something to be removed on precise fit parts like bottom bracket and headset faces, and flat mount caliper mounts.
Carry on
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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  • I will definitely never buy another front derailleur
  • I will likely never buy another rim-brake bike
  • I have no intention of getting rid of my gen-1 Speed Concept (7) at any point in the future

At this point I think the single worst buy in triathlon is high-end rim-brake carbon clincher wheels.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Well thought out as always... I’m loving the idea of my P4 btw

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
Well thought out as always... I’m loving the idea of my P4 btw

It's almost perfect. Except it has the clearance issue and the world's worst rear rim brake -- I mean, this brake is so bad that I just took it off the bike. Working with chicanery on a slick custom solution to accommodate an Omega X or a Magura in the rear, and if successful, then this ride is going to be hard to beat in all areas of performance, especially if I can get Jet blacks in without rub.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Solution is easy. Buy a P5.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My rear mount is done. Raced it this weekend with a Magura. Beautiful stopping power and modulation.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I enjoyed reading this if only for the reinforcement of not having purchased a disc brake bike.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:

Here's the thing about disc brakes -- they are fantastic, but for four reasons I don't foresee myself ever racing a triathlon on them unless wet weather is all but assured...

...especially considering one could easily just buy a set of Hed Jet Turbine wheels for that occasion. Heck, using them may even convince you to use them all the time instead of some over-priced and mis-optimized all-carbon jobbies. Net cost savings :-)

Anyways, everything you say above is exactly how I feel about my TT rig AND my road bike.

Oh...and IME, cable actuated brakes (in particular TRP Spyre) are significantly more forgiving of clearance issues than hydros (mostly because it's pretty easy to back out a cable adjuster to gain a small bit of more pad clearance when issues arise).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I will hold on to my P5 very tightly and I love the Magura brakes
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Rim brakes, but only a bike that can run Maguras properly. My morphology offers me a LOT more options from a stack and reach perspective though.

I have them on a Softride Rocket TT, Cervelo P5, Pearson custom, and I suspect they will go on a Ventum soon. I had them on my Dimond previously, but that was a bit of a hack job. The adapter for the Ventum probably won't be great, but hopefully better than a very thin nut threaded on to the shaft, used as a jam nut against the frame's built in threads. Tomfoolery, but that was the best I could come up with. It was worth it for the braking quality.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
I enjoyed reading this if only for the reinforcement of not having purchased a disc brake bike.

And that logic can forever support your decision until logic very suddenly and painfully (hopefully not tragically) fails you on the open road. It only takes one incident or near miss to invalidate the absurd notion that rim braking on carbon clinchers is sufficient or "fine" or "okay" in wet weather -- that idea is fallacious at best and deadly at worst.

Yes, Tom A., we know everyone should have alloy tracks. But they don't. So here we are.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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From personal experience I have already started converting back to alloy rims. By end of year 3 of 4 bikes will be so equipped. Still don't want disc brakes.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
I enjoyed reading this if only for the reinforcement of not having purchased a disc brake bike.


And that logic can forever support your decision until logic very suddenly and painfully (hopefully not tragically) fails you on the open road. It only takes one incident or near miss to invalidate the absurd notion that rim braking on carbon clinchers is sufficient or "fine" or "okay" in wet weather -- that idea is fallacious at best and deadly at worst.

Yes, Tom A., we know everyone should have alloy tracks. But they don't. So here we are.

This thread just reminded me...I need to order new pads for my "all-road" bike...damn, those things sure seem to wear out fast.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Solution is easy. Buy a P5.

Dislike that bike in stock form -- at least the P5-6. The beard is too chintzy, the stack is too high, and the integrated base bar is unexceptional and slow -- what a fall from grace the Adura is by the makers of the Ventus. Thoughtful integration is basically non existent, the lack of which was basically an overcorrection from the poorly received P4 bottle. The P5 is also slower than the P4, because it's a watt or two more aero and 3 lbs heavier, or something silly.

After the P4 debacle, when the founders of the company were driven out of Canada, Cervelo went backwards and continue to go backwards in TT/tri bike performance in an attempt to a) serve the fat middle of the bell curve with integrated storage/hydration options that accommodate their observed behaviors (bananas duct taped to top tube) rather than their stated preferences (raw speed, PRs, M-dot tattoo); b) to promulgate disc braking as an industry-wide initiative to stem the bleeding in performance road by making brake maintenance impossible for the average consumer, driving business to the shops that are the forefront of the accelerating demise; and c) to add marketing equity to the premium-ness of a brand that deigns to charge $15,000 for a bicycle (Felt is guilty too). You won't see me on the P3-X until it's price competitive with the Tactical, and that won't happen as long as Cervelo continues to fumble around and fuck up it's business with an archaic and broken distribution and inventory management model.

The P5 is fine, I guess. But the P4 is better, if it can be made to stop, because it is faster and matches its successor in nearly every other regard, and it surpasses in the most important facet, which is fit.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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kjmcawesome wrote:
At this point I think the single worst buy in triathlon is high-end rim-brake carbon clincher wheels.

Totally agree based on intuition, which is why I'm selling Zipps short and holding HED Blacks long. What would be fascinating is to see a depreciation curve for high-end cycling products, like I can when I sell my iPhone on Swappa.


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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with almost everything, and I never could figure out why they were sending us discs for TT bikes. I only know ONE turn in triathlon where they would be benneficial; the hard right turn at the end of the 50+ mph drop in the front of American Zoffingan but my rim brakes always did the job there. Especially agree that discs could be a travel nightmare.

But why do you figure that discs will add time to a flat change? I never had any problem with my mountain bikes. And you have to be a total spazz to get chain grease on you rotor.

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I'm almost considering not running brake at all and only using it on flat courses because of the way the cable routing works between the P4 and the Aduro bars I have on it now...

kileyay wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Well thought out as always... I’m loving the idea of my P4 btw


It's almost perfect. Except it has the clearance issue and the world's worst rear rim brake -- I mean, this brake is so bad that I just took it off the bike. Working with chicanery on a slick custom solution to accommodate an Omega X or a Magura in the rear, and if successful, then this ride is going to be hard to beat in all areas of performance, especially if I can get Jet blacks in without rub.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:

3) Disc brakes are a pain to travel with to races. Rotors need to be TSA proofed (removed and wrapped in four layers of bubble wrap) and then invariably you lose those little pad spreaders and you have to go through the process of centering. Any time you have hydraulic hose it impacts your ability to cleanly disassemble the components of the bike for compact carry.

4) Flat changes would be 50% worse with disc brakes. Rear flat would be a 6 minute rather than 3.5 minute ordeal, which in my age group is the difference between losing five places and ten. And then afterwards of course you brake will be rubbing (back to point 2). Bonus points if you get chain grease on your hands and on the rotors and contaminate the system so your bike sounds like an aortic elephant every time you actuate it, which is every revolution because it is still rubbing.

These two things stuck out to me when I put together my new Canyon Aeroad with disc brakes. I will never travel or race with it, so not a super concern as of now, but I was just forward thinking to five years from now when I buy a new tri bike that will inevitably have disc brakes. Those through axles and alignment of the rotor to brake are going to be a motherfucker when in a frenzied, sweaty, and tired panic trying to change the flat.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
does the concept of a forever TT bike make sense to you

No, not really.

For all your usual melodrama, what you describe is all marginal stuff that's going to be superseded by the general advancement of bike tech. We may be something close to "peak aero" (though I'm not entirely convinced of that), but we sure as hell aren't "peak fittable," "peak packable," "peak maintainable," "peak material science," "peak sexy," etc.
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
Those through axles and alignment of the rotor to brake are going to be a motherfucker when in a frenzied, sweaty, and tired panic trying to change the flat.


Seriously. It's just insanely hard.


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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
Those through axles and alignment of the rotor to brake are going to be a motherfucker when in a frenzied, sweaty, and tired panic trying to change the flat.


Seriously. It's just insanely hard.


Ummm...that axle is ONLY used by Focus, IIRC...and, it didn't look like he spun it to make sure it wasn't rubbing :-/

Funny thing is...there's nothing that design shown has over a standard quick-release wheel paired to a fork with forward-entry dropouts. Seriously.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Feb 22, 18 16:51
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
I'm almost considering not running brake at all and only using it on flat courses because of the way the cable routing works between the P4 and the Aduro bars I have on it now...

kileyay wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Well thought out as always... I’m loving the idea of my P4 btw


It's almost perfect. Except it has the clearance issue and the world's worst rear rim brake -- I mean, this brake is so bad that I just took it off the bike. Working with chicanery on a slick custom solution to accommodate an Omega X or a Magura in the rear, and if successful, then this ride is going to be hard to beat in all areas of performance, especially if I can get Jet blacks in without rub.


Besides being against the rules that's also insanely stupid.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Feb 22, 18 16:52
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Re: Disc Brakes & the Concept of a "Forever" Rim-Braking Time Trial/Triathlon Bike [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome to Slowtwitch where we take our brakes off because it’s better or “faster”. All of this disc brake complaining is hilarious to watch. It reminds me of the Apple haters who were mad the headphone jack went away. It was really funny when Android phones did it too.

The anti Di2 and electronic shifting crowd was fun to watch too.

Anyways carry on with the complaining.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Feb 22, 18 17:22
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