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Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [robgray] [ In reply to ]
 
robgray wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


Hey Rob, no one has been able to answer one of my questions above. If the Dimond beam "sinks" do you just end up with a lower seat position in a "bottomed out" fail safe mode or do you have the chance of the rear beam hitting the rear wheel moving at 80 kph. Since I have ridden down Palomar with you at 80 kph, I am guessing its just a 'sinking' beam thing. If that is the case, I don't see how this makes this bike unsafe, you might just go slower in your training ride or race. I can see how that affects you as a pro triathlete.


Hey Dev - there is a big bolt holding the beam up front - so it cannot really sink unless the carbon breaks (either where the bolt is, or the beam itself). The design is such that the bolt and the "lower frame" support all the weight. The issue with the seat dropping happens when the seat clamp doesn't hold the seatpost, so the seatpost drops and bottoms out against the end of the beam. For most riders, that means that their seat drops a few mm, which although inconvenient, is not unsafe. They resolved those seat clamp issues quite a long time ago.

I have no skin in this fight other than I like both of the men in this dispute. I just needed clarity on the "failure mode" because I personally could not see how this would be UNSAFE to ride and this entire thread might end up being a spread of misinformation towards the uninformed that overly penalizes the company's design and manufacturing.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
 
Quote:


Hey Dev - there is a big bolt holding the beam up front - so it cannot really sink unless the carbon breaks (either where the bolt is, or the beam itself). The design is such that the bolt and the "lower frame" support all the weight. The issue with the seat dropping happens when the seat clamp doesn't hold the seatpost, so the seatpost drops and bottoms out against the end of the beam. For most riders, that means that their seat drops a few mm, which although inconvenient, is not unsafe. They resolved those seat clamp issues quite a long time ago.


Quote:
I have no skin in this fight other than I like both of the men in this dispute. I just needed clarity on the "failure mode" because I personally could not see how this would be UNSAFE to ride and this entire thread might end up being a spread of misinformation towards the uninformed that overly penalizes the company's design and manufacturing.


Yea, but...that may be "fine" for JRA'ing, but when you are RACING and your entire livelihood depends on that result...

Which is the foundation of the alleged breach of contract...
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Apr 27, 17 6:56
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
 
exactly - that's my concern too - the underlying current of the GoFundMe page is that the bike is unsafe - which is absolutely not the case.

____________________________________

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Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
I agree.... a sinking saddle is not a "danger" to most. But on a $10k bike, a sinking saddle should have never made it out of production. And someone trying to sell a used $10k bike with a now-known sinking saddle issue probably just lost most of the value of their bike. Loss of value due to a hidden manufacturing defect is deceptive advertising... see VW.

Even if not unsafe, is a bike with a sinking saddle raceworthy? I'd think not.

Also, the contract likely has an attorneys' fees provision. If so, and Rapp prevails, what is he going to do with the fees he is awarded?

Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [wolfen] [ In reply to ]
 
Anyone want to venture an over/under guess as to how long the Diamondback sponsorship lasts?
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [robgray] [ In reply to ]
 
robgray wrote:
exactly - that's my concern too - the underlying current of the GoFundMe page is that the bike is unsafe - which is absolutely not the case.

I think you're wrong, the underlying current is that the bike is not fit for a professional (Jordan, in this instance) to race. "RACE" is the key word in all of this. Whether you (general you, not you specifically) agree with that foundation or not is open to interpretation.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
 
SBRcoffee wrote:
Fuck it, I'll probably get blasted for this, but....I don't feel one bit sorry. You know why?

Because of shit like this from you:

I've owned three Dimonds. All have been great bikes. Like ABSOLUTELY EVERY BIKE I've ever owned, there are things I would change about them. What's great about working with Dimond is how fast many of those things HAVE been changed in the two years I've been working with them. And none of the things I desire to change are (or were) things that I think should keep someone from buying a Dimond.

Lots of folks, myself included, asked your opinions of the Dimond in very recent months, including via PM's, and you lied your ass off. You never spoke of any major issues. Now you want people to fund a defence for you. Piss off.

I wish him luck in the lawsuit... but yeah this is what I suspect with many pros and the sponsorship equipment, supplements, etc. I'm not mad about it but here is proof nonetheless.

Add me to the that thinks this public statement isn't a good idea... but I'm not a lawyer.
Last edited by: xeon: Apr 27, 17 7:06
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
 
CPT Chaos wrote:
Except that the claim would be seriously weakened as none of this noise would have happened if they had not sued in the first place. Their lawsuit has brought this onto them, without it, there would be no brand damage.

Which is patently ridiculous. People on ST are not saying they aren't going to buy the bikes because Dimond is "bullying" Jordan, they are saying they are not buying the bikes because Jordan is now saying that they are inherently badly made and manufactured, and, dangerous. If the reason was the former, there may be some veracity to that argument. As it's the latter, there isn't. The noise wouldn't have happened had Jordan not chosen to ask, in public forum, for support in this case and proceeded to state why Dimond bikes (the bikes themselves) are so bad. Had he dealt with it like almost every other person/company does when being sued (i.e. taking legal advice, keeping quiet and dealing with it all in the background) then no one would have been any the wiser and no one would have been publicly stating that they don't want to by Dimond bikes anymore because they are scared they are dangerous.

At best this is just evidence Dimond can show as damages for breach of contract (in an endorsement deal the basics are: 1 - use our stuff; 2 - say nice things about our stuff). By saying bad things about Dimond, whether or not Jordan believes them to be true, he will be in breach of those terms. At worst this is a form of libel/slander and, again, all of these posts just evidence the damage Jordan's statement has made to Dimond's brand and reputation.

I have no sympathy whatsoever. Jordan, by this post, is severely (irreparably as many here are claiming - oh dear, Jordan) damaging Dimond's brand and, if I were Dimond, I would be throwing the kitchen sink at this and Jordan.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [LundyLund] [ In reply to ]
 
unless he counter-sues for reputation damage, he's not going to get much more than attorneys fees. If Dimond wins, honestly they aren't going to get much. I don't know about jordan, but most pros race under a "corp" name, just like a small business would to protect their personal assets. By the time anyone pays a penny Dimond will be out of business and Jordan will be a motivational speaker.

USAT LIIE Certified Coach
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
 
Replying to you only b/c yours is the last post.

A while back didn't uber-AGer Sam Gyde allude to serious QC issues with his Dimond and promise a write-up after they were resolved? Did anything come out of that?

An LBS owner (and ST frequenter) whom I trust also saw issues similar to these on a Dimond brought into his shop for a fit. It just seems I've heard about a lot more of these types of issues on Dimonds than other bikes. My perspective, anyway.

Anyway, unfortunate all around, and it definitely makes both parties look bad. I think Dimond will really regret this lawsuit.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [lbmxj560] [ In reply to ]
 
He severed the relationship months ago, said nothing and then was sued. His statements now are so far after the point, that it is laughable that you put anything to them. This lawsuit is empty. Jordan quit his job, essentially, and repaid his salary for the unearned future. There is nothing Dimond could do, or any other employer/et al to stop that.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [1poseur1] [ In reply to ]
 
1poseur1 wrote:
dhr wrote:
Can't wait to read Thomas Gerlach's take on this. Has he posted yet?


Hilarious. I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully he will be able to turn his response into a 300 word missive about how he recommended a tire or how he commutes by bike.
In Reply To:


I just don't get a comment like this. So you would rather have me work towards taking sponsorship where my true views could be silenced? Where I would be forced to ride and promote that particular company's tires? Although maybe I need another 600 words to truly explain myself, I sometimes yes add tangential things to my posts as either assertions or commentary to provide context of what I am saying. I apologize if it is nonsense to you, but I can assure you I am thinking about it and trying to be as clear and transparent as possible even if tersity is lacking.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Apr 27, 17 7:30
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
 
mbwallis wrote:
I think Dimond will really regret this lawsuit.
IME, it's rare for either party to emerge unscathed in these types of situations.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [jw13] [ In reply to ]
 
I agree 100%. What lawyer in their right mind would not tell you to STFU? Whether an arrest or a lawsuit... keep your mouth shut...this boggles my mind. Everything you say and do WILL be held against you. Counter sue and call their bluff. Sounds like they are S.O.L. and just throwing lawsuits to see what sticks. There is no way I would be giving them arrows for their quiver though.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
 
CPT Chaos wrote:
He severed the relationship months ago, said nothing and then was sued. His statements now are so far after the point, that it is laughable that you put anything to them. This lawsuit is empty. Jordan quit his job, essentially, and repaid his salary for the unearned future. There is nothing Dimond could do, or any other employer/et al to stop that.

Endorsement contacts are not the same as your typical "at will" employee/employer relationship. That said, it probably would have been in Dimond's best interest to treat Jordan like an employee who resigned

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]
 
"What is the difference between a Dimond and a Diamondback?"

Dimonds are not forever.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [robgray] [ In reply to ]
 
robgray wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

Hey Rob, no one has been able to answer one of my questions above. If the Dimond beam "sinks" do you just end up with a lower seat position in a "bottomed out" fail safe mode or do you have the chance of the rear beam hitting the rear wheel moving at 80 kph. Since I have ridden down Palomar with you at 80 kph, I am guessing its just a 'sinking' beam thing. If that is the case, I don't see how this makes this bike unsafe, you might just go slower in your training ride or race. I can see how that affects you as a pro triathlete.

Hey Dev - there is a big bolt holding the beam up front - so it cannot really sink unless the carbon breaks (either where the bolt is, or the beam itself). The design is such that the bolt and the "lower frame" support all the weight. The issue with the seat dropping happens when the seat clamp doesn't hold the seatpost, so the seatpost drops and bottoms out against the end of the beam. For most riders, that means that their seat drops a few mm, which although inconvenient, is not unsafe. They resolved those seat clamp issues quite a long time ago.

If that bolt is taking some of the load, and especially if the two pieces of carbon are as loose as in Jordan's video, it seems there is a possibility the connection was improperly designed. I have not seen what's going on inside there so I cannot say for sure.

Does that bolt really serve a structural purpose other than increasing friction between carbon surfaces? I.e.does the edge of the hole which the bolt goes through push on the bolt itself to provide that structure? From the video it appears that way.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [robgray] [ In reply to ]
 
robgray wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


Hey Rob, no one has been able to answer one of my questions above. If the Dimond beam "sinks" do you just end up with a lower seat position in a "bottomed out" fail safe mode or do you have the chance of the rear beam hitting the rear wheel moving at 80 kph. Since I have ridden down Palomar with you at 80 kph, I am guessing its just a 'sinking' beam thing. If that is the case, I don't see how this makes this bike unsafe, you might just go slower in your training ride or race. I can see how that affects you as a pro triathlete.


Hey Dev - there is a big bolt holding the beam up front - so it cannot really sink unless the carbon breaks (either where the bolt is, or the beam itself). The design is such that the bolt and the "lower frame" support all the weight. The issue with the seat dropping happens when the seat clamp doesn't hold the seatpost, so the seatpost drops and bottoms out against the end of the beam. For most riders, that means that their seat drops a few mm, which although inconvenient, is not unsafe. They resolved those seat clamp issues quite a long time ago.

depending on how you cut the seatpost, you can make it so it doesn't move at all.



---------------------------------------
Fruit snacks are for winners
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
unless he counter-sues for reputation damage, he's not going to get much more than attorneys fees. If Dimond wins, honestly they aren't going to get much. I don't know about jordan, but most pros race under a "corp" name, just like a small business would to protect their personal assets. By the time anyone pays a penny Dimond will be out of business and Jordan will be a motivational speaker.


The raceworthy aspect might be how he prevails on who first breached the contract. Even if he wins that, I agree he won't get damages. But, if a bunch of people are paying his fees as he goes, and he is then awarded them as the prevailing party, what is he going to do with that money? Is it going to the foundation? I also agree with your assessment about Dimond's likelihood of recovery.

I, too, am a lawyer. I, too, was puzzled that his lawyer would approve him posting here. I suspect there's a tactical reason for it, but the risk of it backfiring seems high. Rapp, I'm not going to tell you to get another lawyer, but you should definitely be questioning your counsel hard about why he would have you do something like this, its potential consequences, etc. Good luck.

Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
Last edited by: LundyLund: Apr 27, 17 7:27
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
 
mbwallis wrote:
Replying to you only b/c yours is the last post.

A while back didn't uber-AGer Sam Gyde allude to serious QC issues with his Dimond and promise a write-up after they were resolved? Did anything come out of that?

An LBS owner (and ST frequenter) whom I trust also saw issues similar to these on a Dimond brought into his shop for a fit. It just seems I've heard about a lot more of these types of issues on Dimonds than other bikes. My perspective, anyway.

Anyway, unfortunate all around, and it definitely makes both parties look bad. I think Dimond will really regret this lawsuit.

There was never any follow up from Sam about his issues. He moved to Ventum. Then within the past several months he moved back to the new Dimond Marquise.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [LundyLund] [ In reply to ]
 
LundyLund wrote:
Even if not unsafe, is a bike with a sinking saddle raceworthy? I'd think not.

By racing on the bike(s) multiple times, is that accepting them as 'raceworthy'? I'm not saying that it is or it isn't, just something to consider.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [lbmxj560] [ In reply to ]
 
*IF* Dimond broke the contract first by not providing a suitable bike, then the contract is null and void and Jordan is no longer bound to keep quiet and say nice things about Dimond.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
 
RowToTri wrote:
*IF* Dimond broke the contract first by not providing a suitable bike, then the contract is null and void and Jordan is no longer bound to keep quiet and say nice things about Dimond.

Hard to prove the bike was not suitable when he was recommending it to everyone who asked, never had an actual frame failure by his own admission, won an Ironman aboard it, etc etc
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
 
lovegoat wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Herbert wrote:
If you have such an ongoing bad image of Dan and ST, why are you even here?


For threads like this one, of course.

EDIT: On a more serious note, I will say that this is obviously a fast-moving story, and Dan has stated that he has reached out to Dimond for comments. Until there is an in-depth, balanced article on the front page, though, Dan/ST is failing to fulfill his/its journalistic role. That's why I originally asked "when are we going to hear Dimond's side of the story?" (Note: I find it amusing that Jordan replied to my question by providing more from his side of things. Yeah, he had to dive back into the thread somewhere, but what an odd place to do it.)



While I'd welcome a front pace article (and I expect there to be one), I disagree with you statement.

Should this thread not be allowed to surface because Dimond has not yet whished to comment, despoter been given the opportunity?

Also, I'll add that everyone is ofcourse entitled their own opinion, and Im not surprised by the number of "jump the gun"-approaches. The way I see it the main concern for Dimond with this thread is the issue of wheter or not they make good/safe bikes. Every company should tolerate and expect that this is discussed ad infinitum on the Internett, and in this respect I dont view this thread any different from of if I were to start a thread on what I dislike on my 2009 Trek.

The twist that makes this kinda viral is the contractual relationship between Rapp and Dimond, and Rapp's "status" om ST. When Dimond chooses to sue Rapp - and making the dispute public - I see no reason why Rapp shouldnt be allowed to start a thread on it.

All the other issues; whom you sympathize with, is it smart on Rapp's, account, etc, is for anyone to decide, but are not reasons to pull the thread.

Hold on now - I never said anything about the existence of this thread. It was Jordan's decision to start it, and while I can only assume that Dan advised him against it, as I said before I am not surprised that he let it stand. What I'm wanting to see is a neutral/balanced report on the topic - after all, Dan has assumed the role of a journalist, so I think he owes the world as much. If he doesn't think he can be objective, that's cool too, just turn the job over to someone who can be. So far, though, he hasn't even responded with "we're working on a story - sit tight." I therefore don't feel the least bit guilty of applying a little pressure to try to get Dan/ST to do their self-appointed duties.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
unless he counter-sues for reputation damage, he's not going to get much more than attorneys fees. If Dimond wins, honestly they aren't going to get much. I don't know about jordan, but most pros race under a "corp" name, just like a small business would to protect their personal assets. By the time anyone pays a penny Dimond will be out of business and Jordan will be a motivational speaker.

I have a couple of questions for the corp pros but the only ones I know also have coaching businesses. Do you have some names I could reach out to about some questions that don't have coaching businesses???


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