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Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
 
Andrew Coggan wrote:
So when will ST readers get to hear Dimond's side of the story?

Trying to answer those that I think I can to start.

Some general answers to start with:

1) I have a lawyer already. Howard Jacobs - the "athlete's lawyer" who most folks know from anti-doping cases. He's local to me (lives about 10min away) and is himself a triathlete. Plus he specializes in working with athletes. So he seemed a good choice. We are working with a colleague of his in Iowa.

2) As far as the money, I am paying. I will have to pay the costs. The GoFundMe may cover all of it. Or it may cover some of it. If there's extra, I'll donate it. If there isn't, I'm on the hook for whatever is left.

3) I cleared this post with my lawyer and Dan before posting it.

4) I have a copy of the suit from Dimond. I will ask my lawyer if I can post it. I personally have no issue with making it public, but I obviously need to ask my counsel. Dan certainly has my permission to post it, but again, I will need ask Howard about this. But there I certainly have zero objections to it being posted. Or to having Dimond/TJ tell their side of the story.

5) As to the why, it's not more or less complicated than what I wrote. It's possible that I could have made a more generous offer to settle that would have been accepted. That would likely be cheaper than the net cost in of fighting. However, I do not believe that is the right thing. Now, perhaps this is too little, too late. And certainly I don't expect that I make it out of this without my own reputation being seriously harmed. I did not wish to harm a company that I believed was trying hard to make good bikes. Once it became clear that they were more interested in a vindictive lawsuit than in listening to my constructive criticism about how to fix the flaws in the design, I no longer believed that they were a company worth defending. I expect some people may disagree with that decision. I can accept that.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [pk1] [ In reply to ]
 
Rapp star modifies parts to fit his riding style. He maybe an engineer but changing parts that were engineered to work one way to something else is always a gamble. He modified parts on his new Diamondback. What changes he made to the Dimond I do not know. We are not hearing the whole story. I have not experienced anything on my Dimond that he is writing about.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
 
The GMAN wrote:
I've had no issues with my Dimond (yet and hopefully never will) but this thread has my full attention. I do most of my riding on my other tri bike on the trainer and only bust out the Dimond for races and very few training rides. So I don't put the miles and wear and tear on it that Jordan does so my level of stress testing the bike is nowhere near his. Now I must think about having a defective product, which isn't cool since this piece of carbon isl all that is holding me up from eating pavement at 20-30 mph. I now also have a bike whose resale value probably just plummeted when Jordan hit submit.

I'm also a wee bit annoyed in Jordan pimping a product that he knew had issues. That's not sitting well with me either. Jordan's endorsement of the product played a very, very minor role in my decision to buy but it nevertheless played a role. Had this post came out when I was shopping for a new bike I can guarantee you that I would have bought something else. Guaranteed. Not that Jordan's allegations are fact at this point but it's more than enough to concern me.

I've had the bike for over a year and had no buyer's remorse until now.

I can certainly see the frustration that he promoted something that wasn't right. I think the flip side of that is that he was under contract, an emerging pro, and trying to do right by the hand that feeds him. That's a tough line to toe. Especially when you want to believe that these are your friends and they are going to take input and make their products right.

Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Tricoastal] [ In reply to ]
 
Tricoastal wrote:
So you have the money to pay for an attorney as indicated by your not wanting to dip into savings comment but instead you'd rather have other random people pay your legal fees just to save you money? I wish you luck in your legal fight against TJ and Dimond but the GoFundMe part is kinda strange.

Ultimately, I decided that I wanted to fight this as opposed to attempting to settle, in spite of the fact that it was likely to result in significantly more costs. I wanted to fight this because I did not want this to be kept quiet. And so the GoFundMe was a way to work to mitigate the cost of fighting this. For those who cannot reconcile that with the fact that I represented this brand publicly, I respect your decision.

In all cases, I have always tried to make the "right" decision. If other people's sense of morality differs from mine, I can absolutely respect that as well.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
 
devashish_paul wrote:
I kind of wish all of this was resolved offline from a forum and the public mud slinging, with the careers/businesses and reputations of people on both sides being hung out to dry

Sounds like Jordan tried to resolve this quietly and without mudslinging. He told the company he no longer had confidence in their product, and asked to be released from his contract. He thought the company was on board with an amicable separation, and kept his product quality concerns to himself. Even when he was announced as a new Diamondback sponsored rider, he was very careful not to disparage Dimond. Only when hit with a $150,000 law suit (an amount that is presumably far in excess of whatever compensation in dollars and equipment he every received from Dimond) did Jordan go public.

Between this and the other thread where they pissed a customer off over a misquoted fork price, it seems clear that Dimond has no real understanding of the potential costs of negative PR. I guess they've had so much sunshine blown up their behind lately, they think everyone's gonna take their side on every issue.

No way in hell the damage done to the company's value by bringing this issue into the public record with a lawsuit isn't going to cost them more than whatever damages they might be able to secure.....and that's before they pay any lawyers. This is a poorly conceived lawsuit that seems as much an act of spite as anything.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
 
SBRcoffee wrote:
Fuck it, I'll probably get blasted for this, but....I don't feel one bit sorry. You know why?

Because of shit like this from you:

I've owned three Dimonds. All have been great bikes. Like ABSOLUTELY EVERY BIKE I've ever owned, there are things I would change about them. What's great about working with Dimond is how fast many of those things HAVE been changed in the two years I've been working with them. And none of the things I desire to change are (or were) things that I think should keep someone from buying a Dimond.

Lots of folks, myself included, asked your opinions of the Dimond in very recent months, including via PM's, and you lied your ass off. You never spoke of any major issues. Now you want people to fund a defence for you. Piss off.

You will not hear a peep of criticism from me on this. I have had to think about that every single day for quite some time. And I will have to continue to think about this for quite some time.

I did not write that believing it was a lie. I wrote that wanting myself to have it be true. I don't offer that as a defense of any sort. Simply a statement. I do not expect it to change your feelings. It was the posts like yours that I knew would come. And which I knew would hit me the hardest.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
 
afurlong wrote:
As I stated, they are establishing that all of these events have happened in breach of contract and are damaging to their business.

I get that. I just can't see what the end game is. What does TJ hope to accomplish? Does he really think he's going to be awarded damages?
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [spot] [ In reply to ]
 
spot wrote:
I'm wondering if you can explain this in your post:

"The frame I received for Kona 2015 was demonstrably worse. Unfortunately, due to the compressed timeline that results from the far too common "we want you on a new frame for Kona!" attitude - something that I have agreed to more times than I should have, the true depth of these defects did not become apparent for quite some time. As an engineer, I'm sad to say that it took me until July of 2016 to realize just how damaged this frame was. It had the same issues with the saddle rail clamp, which should have been a red flag. And the new seat-post binder wasn't any better - and was in fact worse - than the old one."

Considering that you posted this in Oct '16:

"The seatpost clamp has been entirely redesigned. The original design was a "pinch" design that was super sensitive to any variance in tolerances on the frame or seatpost. They've since replaced that with a back-to-front plate design that is much better and with which I have had no issues. I can post pics showing the difference if it is not clear."

I can hopefully explain this without writing another novel. The first time I received the updated seatpost clamp, it was as a retrofit. Based on the design, it seemed clear to me that the threaded part (the larger piece) needed to be bonded onto the beam. The interior of the clamp is tapered. If it is not bonded on, it will slip upwards over time, which causes it to loosen. This is how I *assumed* it worked. And because it came as a retrofit, I just did that bonding myself.

However, once it became clear that Dimond doesn't actually bond it in place, the flaw - that you have a piece which is trying to grab onto a frame member that tapers - became obvious.

So when I looked at the part and made the decision about how I thought it ought to work, it worked fine. But that's not actually how it was designed. But I didn't realize that how I thought it worked and how it was designed were not the same until later on.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
 
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
davews09 wrote:
Is there a way to access this complaint from the public domain? I have 0 legal expertise.

Of course there is.

Des Moines County Clerk. You have to pay $25 to read the original petition. This is how I know that Dimond is also suing Chris (and Ventum).

So taking the conspiracy angle, and a honest question then, is there any chance there is some foul play going on with the other Dimond thread. I mean if Dimond knew they had a potential poop storm on their hands, wouldn't it be prudent of them to deal with the customer as best as they cold. Here we have Ventum being served a lawsuit, then magically stepping up to the plate to take care of a customer. Scratching my head... I mean seriously unless Dimond just served the lawsuit to Ventum as retaliatory move, but it sounds like based on Rapp it was served some time ago.

I was threatened with a lawsuit in January. But I was actually served with the suit on Apr 12.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [davews09] [ In reply to ]
 
davews09 wrote:
Per Stan's permission, mind posting the doc so we can all review?

I will ask my lawyer for permission.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
 
I'm glad that I saved the money I was going to spend on the "Dipsy Doodlers" in the low-speed wind tunnel for you!

Going to bed now a little more heavy hearted than before reading this, but will contribute in the AM. My heartfelt condolences for your being in this unfortunate situation.

DFL > DNF > DNS
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [npage148] [ In reply to ]
 
npage148 wrote:
Did any frames actually fail or were you just not happy with the loose tolerances?

I had no frames suffer catastrophic failures or otherwise become unRIDEable. I would argue that - in terms of being RACEable - the frame shown in the video absolutely "failed."

So I would say it depends on the definition of "fail."

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
 
GreenPlease wrote:


I get that. I just can't see what the end game is. What does TJ hope to accomplish? Does he really think he's going to be awarded damages?


I can't see what the end game is, either. This thread alone has probably cost them more in brand equity and future sales than the most optimistic estimate of damages they might collect...and that's before they pay any attorney's fees.

What we appear to have here is a text book example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 26, 17 22:29
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
 
I wasn't wrong.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
 
Having met you multiple times, I believe you are sincere in saying that. It is still hard to reconcile and if you truly understand that this is hard for some people, well that is a good thing. I don't feel quite as harsh as SBR because, well, i don't own a dimond. I am glad to hear this issue though bc it was high on my list, along with the Andean and P5x. I don't truly believe anyone can come after a spokesperson for any legal repercussions, because if you were to talk bad about the company while under contract that would definitely be a breach. But I do think that is where SBR is coming from in his comment. You are not just another pro triathlete.... you're a multiple Ironman champion, and your opinions have weight. It's good that your attorney approved that post, but I stick to my previous comment above..... I don't think this should have ever been posted, certainly not by you. I am praying for a good result for you because I do think you are a good ambassador for the sport and an actual good person. For those of you that don't think so, just google Jordan Rapp Ironman Foundation.

USAT LIIE Certified Coach
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
 
Well put.

I think most Dimond owners feel the way that Jordan said he felt when he was their cheerleader, and we truly do feel that way. ie sure some things have gone wrong on occasion, but it's always been dealt with swiftly. I've never seen anything that I would regard as unsafe. I've put my Dimond through worse conditions than anyone and I've never once felt unsafe.

I have (or maybe it's HAD) a lot of respect for Rapp, but blaming your poor Kona performance on your bike? Comeawwwwwn.

To me, this thread seems nothing more than an attempt to retrospectively​ paint a picture of an unsafe bike with the goal of justifying the breach of contract.

There is no way I would ride a bike that I didn't trust 100%, and I have no ulterior motive for standing behind Dimond... I have no contract, agreement etc with them at all.

Day 2 of ultraman Hawaii starts with a 45 minute descent of the volcano. It's raining and the road surface is not great. We're bombing down that thing at 50+ mph... No way I'm doing that if in doubt about my ride.

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
 
+1

You are on your own on this.

Your purported integrity does not match the facts you are presenting.

And yes, it sort of pains me to point this out:

Don't trust anybody who has some vested interest in a product or technology...regardless of their credentials.



SBRcoffee wrote:
Fuck it, I'll probably get blasted for this, but....I don't feel one bit sorry. You know why?

Because of shit like this from you:

I've owned three Dimonds. All have been great bikes. Like ABSOLUTELY EVERY BIKE I've ever owned, there are things I would change about them. What's great about working with Dimond is how fast many of those things HAVE been changed in the two years I've been working with them. And none of the things I desire to change are (or were) things that I think should keep someone from buying a Dimond.

Lots of folks, myself included, asked your opinions of the Dimond in very recent months, including via PM's, and you lied your ass off. You never spoke of any major issues. Now you want people to fund a defence for you. Piss off.
Last edited by: windschatten: Apr 26, 17 23:19
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
Whoever said Rapp is a journeyman pro needs to look up his accomplishments... seriously bro, come on!

That was me. I didn't mean it was a pejorative. But I stand by it. Journeyman just means that you're professional and competent, with a solid body of work. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [trail] [ In reply to ]
 
Just makes him sound like he's a relief pitcher that has played for 18 different teams in a 14 year career. :-) Dude is a multiple ironman champion and quite honestly one of the most humble ones I've ever met.

USAT LIIE Certified Coach
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
Having met you multiple times, I believe you are sincere in saying that. It is still hard to reconcile and if you truly understand that this is hard for some people, well that is a good thing. I don't feel quite as harsh as SBR because, well, i don't own a dimond. I am glad to hear this issue though bc it was high on my list, along with the Andean and P5x. I don't truly believe anyone can come after a spokesperson for any legal repercussions, because if you were to talk bad about the company while under contract that would definitely be a breach. But I do think that is where SBR is coming from in his comment. You are not just another pro triathlete.... you're a multiple Ironman champion, and your opinions have weight. It's good that your attorney approved that post, but I stick to my previous comment above..... I don't think this should have ever been posted, certainly not by you. I am praying for a good result for you because I do think you are a good ambassador for the sport and an actual good person. For those of you that don't think so, just google Jordan Rapp Ironman Foundation.


This is really good advice. It's unfortunate, if not tragic, that the OP is not heeding it. I suppose though, it's only money, and only some of which will be his.

Good advice is often ignored. Sometimes, all you can do is help pick up the pieces afterward.
Last edited by: jw13: Apr 26, 17 22:56
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [robgray] [ In reply to ]
 
robgray wrote:
Well put.

I think most Dimond owners feel the way that Jordan said he felt when he was their cheerleader, and we truly do feel that way. ie sure some things have gone wrong on occasion, but it's always been dealt with swiftly. I've never seen anything that I would regard as unsafe. I've put my Dimond through worse conditions than anyone and I've never once felt unsafe.

I have (or maybe it's HAD) a lot of respect for Rapp, but blaming your poor Kona performance on your bike? Comeawwwwwn.

To me, this thread seems nothing more than an attempt to retrospectively​ paint a picture of an unsafe bike with the goal of justifying the breach of contract.

There is no way I would ride a bike that I didn't trust 100%, and I have no ulterior motive for standing behind Dimond... I have no contract, agreement etc with them at all.

Day 2 of ultraman Hawaii starts with a 45 minute descent of the volcano. It's raining and the road surface is not great. We're bombing down that thing at 50+ mph... No way I'm doing that if in doubt about my ride.

As I stated, the issue is one of tolerance and quality control. I do believe that design is fundamentally flawed. However, how quickly those flaws reveal themselves can certainly vary based on any number of factors.

But that is fundamentally not how defects are identified. Look at the Galaxy Note. It was recalled because of a very real problem that led to certain phones - although a relatively small percentage - catching on fire.

Just browse any of the threads on recalls in this forum for products within the bike industry.

There was a revision of the Zipp 88 hub that was recalled because the compression ring could fail: http://www.cpsc.gov/...-Bicycle-Wheel-Hubs/

I put THOUSANDS of miles on wheels built on this hubset without issue. That does not change the fact that the design was defective.

Black swan theory. A thousand white swans do not prove that all swans are white. A single black swan proves they are not. And based on extensive conversations I have had and messages I have received, my frames are not unique with regards to these defects.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [trail] [ In reply to ]
 
He definitely is a journeyman...like all of us,,,,except he chose to proclaim HIS view of things to be more important than the one of others.

.

trail wrote:
TheTort wrote:
Whoever said Rapp is a journeyman pro needs to look up his accomplishments... seriously bro, come on!


That was me. I didn't mean it was a pejorative. But I stand by it. Journeyman just means that you're professional and competent, with a solid body of work. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [trail] [ In reply to ]
 
trail wrote:
TheTort wrote:
Whoever said Rapp is a journeyman pro needs to look up his accomplishments... seriously bro, come on!

That was me. I didn't mean it was a pejorative. But I stand by it. Journeyman just means that you're professional and competent, with a solid body of work. Nothing wrong with that.

FWIW, I did not take it as an insult. In fact, I took it as a complement.

"A 'journeyman' is a skilled worker who has successfully completed an official apprenticeship qualification in a building trade or craft. They are considered competent and authorized to work in that field as a fully qualified employee."

And on, finally, what I hope is a positive note, I'm going to bed.

Thank you to everyone who has offered support. And I respect all of the criticisms that have been leveled.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [TheTort] [ In reply to ]
 
TheTort wrote:
Damn, and Dimond was on the top of my list. Couple of quick comments.... 1> Whoever said Rapp is a journeyman pro needs to look up his accomplishments... seriously bro, come on! 2> Dimond basically just went out of business. 3> Don't want to sound harsh, but if Rapp really did know the frames were defective and he was still pimping them out, while behind the scenes scared for his own life and sending frames back to Dimond.... man you just opened up yourself to lawsuits too if anyone was hurt, or possibly even just for the loss of value of the bike. As a consumer, I am happy as hell to hear about this. If I were your attorney, I'd fire you as a client.

And this is exactly why a thread like this is a monumentally stupid idea. All that is happening now is that ST is compiling a great big pile of evidence for Dimond to show that Jordan's breach of contract is costing it future revenue. Statements like "I'm not going to buy one now" are the best form of evidence. I'm a lawyer in the UK (so don't fully understand US law) but this kind of forum would be an absolute goldmine of evidence if I were acting for Dimond.

And I agree with a lot of the comments here - whilst I accept a sponsored athlete is paid to promote a product, so you have to take their view on that product with an element of suspicion. What is different here, though, is that Jordan has very clearly advised people that, for example, the seat clamp issue has been fixed. Either Jordan was lying then, or he is lying now. Either way, that's a hell of a lot worse than just recommending a brand in general terms.
 
Re: Dimond Is Suing Me. I'm Asking For Your Help. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
 
Rappstar wrote:
I am not sure how I thought that I was going to win Kona...

There's your way out. If you ever considered yourself as a potential winner then clearly you weren't of sound mind and could not legally be held responsible for agreeing to the contract. Get your lawyer on to this angle ASAP.

But just so that we can get this straight:

a) You had (have?) a contract with Dimond to ride their bikes, to the value of around $9000 over two years.
b) While riding their bikes you were happy to publicly and privately promote them to all and sundry without caveat.
c) Almost immediately on starting this contract you noticed numerous issues however you were not deeply concerned as you believed improvements were being made.
d) You made public statements to the effect that you were happy with their bikes and that problems experienced by others were mere "teething problems" and managed to convince yourself of this in spite of your "extensive" knowledge of engineering, the bike in question and cycling in general.
e) You sought release from your contract on the grounds that you believe it was "a matter of life and death" for you to continue to ride them.
f) On thinking that you were being released you were happy to give away what you thought was too dangerous for you to ride so as to "leave a positive impression of the brand."
g) You are being sued for breach of contract.
h) You could probably settle for no more than your silence but now feel the need to make a "moral stand" to protect the public.
i) Rather than wait for the case win (or more likely settlement) where you could possibly be awarded costs or at very least the truth would come out to defend your reputation and thus garner more support you decide to pre-emptively fundraise to fight a company that, let's face it, is almost certainly as hard up for cash as you are and can't afford to just litigate you out of existence anyway.

So it seems that there are a couple of conclusions we can potentially draw from this: Either the bikes aren't as bad as portrayed but you no longer wish to ride them for whatever reason and (mistakenly) thought this was a way out of your contract; or the bikes have always been terribly dangerous (and they have now improved even if only marginally) but the cost of Jordan Rapp's moral compass is approximately $5k per annum.
 

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