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Di2 mix-and-match warning
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This is a quick warning to users of 9070, 6870 and 6770 Di2 groups. The latest version of the E-Tube software, 2.7.0, will offer to upgrade firmware to the battery, among other components.

If you perform this upgrade, you may lose the ability to run certain combinations of components. I discovered this the hard way.

On my TT bike, I run basically a 9070 group (9070 FD & RD, R671 TT shifters, modified climbing remote, and internal battery). Due to some routing considerations, I've been running the EW-67 junction box instead of the EW-90 variants just because the form-factor worked best for my routing. All has worked well. When I need to charge the system, I'd plug in a spare EW-90 and do the charging.

I agreed to the upgraded firmware and.... nothing. A fully-charged system no longer shifts at all with the EW-67 as the junction. Shimano USA confirmed that this is the case (I was the first one to report but they tested it).

Some of you out there might be running a 6870 or 9070 set of Di2 parts along with a 6770 (10s) RD, as a way to delay an upgrade to 11s wheels. If you upgrade the battery's firmware, this combination will no longer work. There's no warning that conveys this is what is going to happen, and Shimano does not document the changes in their releases in a meaningful way.

There is also no going back; unless you buy a new battery with the older firmware, you cannot roll back. I tried (installing an old version of the E-Tube software thinking I could possibly force an "upgrade" to an older version--but it is still smart enough to check that the battery has more recent FW, and the older E-Tube software will not run).

There is no fix offered from Shimano.

Of course it is ultimately up to the end user to make a decision to upgrade the firmware, but most will see the blinking button and give it the attention it demands. 9070/6870 + 6770 RD was never an officially supported configuration...so if you run this and want to preserve it, it is best to never upgrade the firmware. Same deal with the EW-67.

Hope this helps someone.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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Actually...I think that any version of E-Tube software might attempt to upgrade to this new firmware as of July 14th, 2014....but 2.7.0 seems to do it automatically.

The upgraded FW of the battery is v.3.0.5.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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Just to clarify this - if I have a 6800 11 spd rear derailleur, new internal battery and new 3 port junction box but paired with 6770 shifters and front derailleur that if I go to update to the latest firmware than my old 6770 parts won't work and I'll need to buy the latest 6800 so everything communicates properly? That's ridiculous if true.

Thanks for the info and I'm really glad I read this but why would shimano do this? Weird.

"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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Dopers.Suck wrote:
Just to clarify this - if I have a 6800 11 spd rear derailleur, new internal battery and new 3 port junction box but paired with 6770 shifters and front derailleur that if I go to update to the latest firmware than my old 6770 parts won't work and I'll need to buy the latest 6800 so everything communicates properly? That's ridiculous if true.

Thanks for the info and I'm really glad I read this but why would shimano do this? Weird.

It is true. The firmware update after July 17th (or whatever the date above was) renders systems mixing 6870/6770 front/rear derailleurs useless. In either direction (6780 front / 6770 rear or 6770 front / 6870 rear).

I happened to check for updates and do a full charge the day BEFORE this dropped. I am running a 6870 front, 6770 rear b/c I may upgrade to 11sp in the future and with this combination I would only have to replace the rear derailleur and chain. I got lucky. Had I done it one day later I would have surely accepted the firmware update and had a broken system just a couple of months before my first full ironman.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [michael_runs] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, thanks for the info. I guess I won't be doing any updates for a long time now :(

I wonder if it's the same for a full 6770 10 spd groupset except for new internal battery and 5 port junction box. That's what I'm running on my speed concept. So silly

"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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Dopers.Suck wrote:
Ok, thanks for the info. I guess I won't be doing any updates for a long time now :(

I wonder if it's the same for a full 6770 10 spd groupset except for new internal battery and 5 port junction box. That's what I'm running on my speed concept. So silly
Not aura out this one but I think it might be ok. The battery is the brain and the FW update is telling the brain to shut down if any mixing is detected. I think BTR2 was designed to work with 6770, but you might want to call Shimano.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting this - you saved some potential headaches (mine included).

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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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I did the BTR-2 update in late July to 3.0.5 with 6770 front and rear derailleurs and SM-EW90 B 5 port, ST-9071 and SW-R671 with no problems. That said, it looks like most of the firmware updates accommodate new components, so I will most likely pass on future updates.
Last edited by: PSJoyce: Aug 15, 14 13:21
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. Kind of blown away shimano is taking this type of stance with mixing the different generations of etube di2. I have 6700 shifters and battery with 6800 front and rear derailleurs and it works great. Looks like I'll be not upgrading the firmware as well.

Douche move shimano.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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What are the potential benefits of a fw upgrade? Any reason I would want to do it?
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [waupaca11] [ In reply to ]
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waupaca11 wrote:
Wow. Kind of blown away shimano is taking this type of stance with mixing the different generations of etube di2.

These are my thoughts as well. I thought that was the point of e-tube - being able to mix and match anything.


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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [waupaca11] [ In reply to ]
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waupaca11 wrote:
Wow. Kind of blown away shimano is taking this type of stance with mixing the different generations of etube di2. I have 6700 shifters and battery with 6800 front and rear derailleurs and it works great. Looks like I'll be not upgrading the firmware as well.

Douche move shimano.

They don't call it Shitmano for nothing. I believe Shimano is a contraction for SHIt, MAn, NO!

Though i do like my di2 set up, seems like they are fucking with us b/c they can. Their customer support is ridiculously horrible when it comes to what they deem as "kosher." Wanna use a 3-port EW-90 for 4 shifters and wonder if it works? Their rep will tell you a red faced lie and say no and that you should pony up $30 for the 5 port. Wonder if you can use the time trial shifters with a EW-67 by interfacing the items using a JC-41? Answer is also no even though quite a few of us have it set up that way.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
waupaca11 wrote:
Wow. Kind of blown away shimano is taking this type of stance with mixing the different generations of etube di2. I have 6700 shifters and battery with 6800 front and rear derailleurs and it works great. Looks like I'll be not upgrading the firmware as well.

Douche move shimano.


They don't call it Shitmano for nothing. I believe Shimano is a contraction for SHIt, MAn, NO!

Though i do like my di2 set up, seems like they are fucking with us b/c they can. Their customer support is ridiculously horrible when it comes to what they deem as "kosher." Wanna use a 3-port EW-90 for 4 shifters and wonder if it works? Their rep will tell you a red faced lie and say no and that you should pony up $30 for the 5 port. Wonder if you can use the time trial shifters with a EW-67 by interfacing the items using a JC-41? Answer is also no even though quite a few of us have it set up that way.

just wanted to say that i've had some amazing support from shimano/PRO customer service. for example, a few years ago i had hours of conversations with a rep (he was a track racer) about a setup i wanted to run with their aerobars on my TT bike. he took tons of measurements, sent me diagrams, spent lots of time on the phone talking with me (there was never any rush), researched answers and got back to me, etc. pretty amazing.

the rep i spoke with the other day re: the di2 issue was also extremely knowledgeable (he knew of other incompatibilities but mine was a new report), spoke to me several times, arranged for the shimano CS team to do some testing (immediately!) to confirm the issue, brainstormed solutions, was very interested in my own testing (e.g., trying to roll back the FW)....but ultimately his hands were tied. he wanted to send me a battery with the old FW but unfortunately they do not have them (the ones with the old FW are with distributors or retailers already), but he did send me some parts to replace the now "incompatible" EW67.

shimano's always been conservative at compatibility....e.g., their RD capacity has always been stated as lower than what it proves to be in the real world, but everyone seems to know this. the reason why they do it -- i think -- is not to drum up sales but rather that they cater to the lowest common denominator. for a more concrete example, they stated their 7970 RD accommodated a maximum 27T cog. in practice, i'd gotten 30T and even 32T to work, BUT when you talk about RDs the frame/hanger geometry comes into play. instead of saying "this may work" or "RD-7970 sometimes works with cogs as large as 32T" and then having someone complain, they provide conservative specs.

i don't think the rep really cares about whether you buy the 3- or 5-port EW90....it's just that they are provided with several known configurations that work, and if one chooses to daisy-chain JC41's to get more shifters on a 3-port EW-90, then that's on the consumer to figure out. it does also give them the ability to say "well, we never told you it would work" and be truthful about it....when/if compatibility in the future breaks.

i see both sides.

and i do love di2. been riding 7970 since 2010 and think 9070 is even better. i've done custom batteries and lots of custom wiring (7970 was easier). have 6770 on a cross bike and will be putting 9050 on my MTB soon, even though i'm not happy with the FW situation.

i think the lesson in all of this is if one has a non-standard configuration that works (whether it is di2, or something on your PC, or whatever), just don't upgrade without knowing there's some risk. their big blinking "upgrade firmware" button certainly reduce temptation.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [hammond] [ In reply to ]
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hammond wrote:
What are the potential benefits of a fw upgrade? Any reason I would want to do it?

if you're running a non-standard system, there is generally no reason to upgrade. you are taking some risk to do so. shimano does not provide meaningful documentation on what you get and/or what is taken away.

that said, some past FW upgrades provided better operation (e.g., better battery life, improved multi-shift capabilities).

most people who do not do mix-and-match (which is probably most of di2 users) will have no problems.

"if it ain't broke" applies....but the average user will probably click the blinking button to upgrade firmware...and the small percentage who are doing something non-standard will then get a rude awakening...unless they read this or other threads i've posted elsewhere first.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all your help. Any idea where I can get a old FW internal battery? I checked 2 local bike shops that were open late with no luck. I'm in the Wilmington Delaware area.

Thanks again! I made the mistake of clicking the blinking update button :( everything was working just fine



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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [in10siv] [ In reply to ]
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in10siv wrote:
Thanks for all your help. Any idea where I can get a old FW internal battery? I checked 2 local bike shops that were open late with no luck. I'm in the Wilmington Delaware area.

Thanks again! I made the mistake of clicking the blinking update button :( everything was working just fine

sorry--i am not familiar with that area. i'd try the biggest shop around--one that sells bikes like specialized s-works models that might come with di2.

i have one i could send you, but you could just as easily order one...and it doesn't help you for tomorrow anyway. wish i could do more for you.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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That sure is a lot of typing to try and rationalize that it is ok for shimano to intentionally break people's bikes =)

I'm sure your rep is a nice guy. Someone at shimano corporate is a dickhead thoug!

tetonrider wrote:
echappist wrote:
waupaca11 wrote:
Wow. Kind of blown away shimano is taking this type of stance with mixing the different generations of etube di2. I have 6700 shifters and battery with 6800 front and rear derailleurs and it works great. Looks like I'll be not upgrading the firmware as well.

Douche move shimano.


They don't call it Shitmano for nothing. I believe Shimano is a contraction for SHIt, MAn, NO!

Though i do like my di2 set up, seems like they are fucking with us b/c they can. Their customer support is ridiculously horrible when it comes to what they deem as "kosher." Wanna use a 3-port EW-90 for 4 shifters and wonder if it works? Their rep will tell you a red faced lie and say no and that you should pony up $30 for the 5 port. Wonder if you can use the time trial shifters with a EW-67 by interfacing the items using a JC-41? Answer is also no even though quite a few of us have it set up that way.

just wanted to say that i've had some amazing support from shimano/PRO customer service. for example, a few years ago i had hours of conversations with a rep (he was a track racer) about a setup i wanted to run with their aerobars on my TT bike. he took tons of measurements, sent me diagrams, spent lots of time on the phone talking with me (there was never any rush), researched answers and got back to me, etc. pretty amazing.

the rep i spoke with the other day re: the di2 issue was also extremely knowledgeable (he knew of other incompatibilities but mine was a new report), spoke to me several times, arranged for the shimano CS team to do some testing (immediately!) to confirm the issue, brainstormed solutions, was very interested in my own testing (e.g., trying to roll back the FW)....but ultimately his hands were tied. he wanted to send me a battery with the old FW but unfortunately they do not have them (the ones with the old FW are with distributors or retailers already), but he did send me some parts to replace the now "incompatible" EW67.

shimano's always been conservative at compatibility....e.g., their RD capacity has always been stated as lower than what it proves to be in the real world, but everyone seems to know this. the reason why they do it -- i think -- is not to drum up sales but rather that they cater to the lowest common denominator. for a more concrete example, they stated their 7970 RD accommodated a maximum 27T cog. in practice, i'd gotten 30T and even 32T to work, BUT when you talk about RDs the frame/hanger geometry comes into play. instead of saying "this may work" or "RD-7970 sometimes works with cogs as large as 32T" and then having someone complain, they provide conservative specs.

i don't think the rep really cares about whether you buy the 3- or 5-port EW90....it's just that they are provided with several known configurations that work, and if one chooses to daisy-chain JC41's to get more shifters on a 3-port EW-90, then that's on the consumer to figure out. it does also give them the ability to say "well, we never told you it would work" and be truthful about it....when/if compatibility in the future breaks.

i see both sides.

and i do love di2. been riding 7970 since 2010 and think 9070 is even better. i've done custom batteries and lots of custom wiring (7970 was easier). have 6770 on a cross bike and will be putting 9050 on my MTB soon, even though i'm not happy with the FW situation.

i think the lesson in all of this is if one has a non-standard configuration that works (whether it is di2, or something on your PC, or whatever), just don't upgrade without knowing there's some risk. their big blinking "upgrade firmware" button certainly reduce temptation.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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to be fair, i know teton offline, and i was just spewing some half-hearted indignation at Shimano.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Cmon, go full hearted! =)

One of the market advantages of electronic *should* be the ability to make anything work with anything, since things like pull ratios disappear and shift spacing and such can all be reprogrammed easily.

But of course short term big corporate thinking will ruin all that.

This situation presents an opportunity for shimano though, to reverse direction here and instead of sabotaging their customers, promise to embrace them in the future.

Otherwise, this becomes opportunity for SRAM, and others, to do electronic properly and treat customers with respect, and grab market share.




echappist wrote:
to be fair, i know teton offline, and i was just spewing some half-hearted indignation at Shimano.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Yep...almost cost me my ride 1 week before IM Boulder. I ride ultegra 10S shifters and FD with 9070 RD. During the last 20 miles of the Triple bypass my RD began to have problems shifting to lower gears (bigger cogs). I was able to limp home but was out of town on travel with two weeks until my IM. I got back home on a Sunday (7 days prior to my race) and had my mechanic look at it. For some reason it started shifting fine so he hooked it up to his PC and the firmware updated. After that NOTHING WORKED. My mechanic works out of his house so i had few options or ideas on WTF was going on. I ended up talking to another shop owner that happens to be in the same tri club as me and he took over. He contacted Shimano and they sent out a new battery (with a fix?) then diagnosed the original problem to a faulty shifter. He then had Shimano rush a replacement out but seeing my worry 5 days before the race not knowing when the replacement would arrive, robbed a replacement shifter from his bike to get me through the race. Talk about stress. Thanks for that Shimano!!
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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So, I saw this post and decided to upgrade the stock Shimano 6770 series on my 2012 Cannondale Supersix Evo using the new firmware (via the PCE-1 interface). My system uses the original external battery. Guess what...my system wouldn't shift after the upgrade. I put the battery in the charger and let it tank up. Put it back on the system and works fine now. I'm tempted to call Shimano and let them now (they are just a few miles from where I live). If you have an external battery, recharging in might solve the issue!

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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Cmon, go full hearted! =)

One of the market advantages of electronic *should* be the ability to make anything work with anything, since things like pull ratios disappear and shift spacing and such can all be reprogrammed easily.

But of course short term big corporate thinking will ruin all that.

This situation presents an opportunity for shimano though, to reverse direction here and instead of sabotaging their customers, promise to embrace them in the future.

Otherwise, this becomes opportunity for SRAM, and others, to do electronic properly and treat customers with respect, and grab market share.




echappist wrote:
to be fair, i know teton offline, and i was just spewing some half-hearted indignation at Shimano.

shimano never said the units were compatible, so while i agree this sucks, it is not like they *technically* reversed course.

i agree with you that in theory this should be an open source thing. would be neat if a company saw it that way--could actually BOOST sales as i suspect stuff like sequential shifting would have come out much faster...there would be MORE features AND the company wouldn't have to develop them.

OTOH, i wouldn't buy 1st gen SRAM anything, but that's just me.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
to be fair, i know teton offline, and i was just spewing some half-hearted indignation at Shimano.

echapp is a great guy and knows di2+plasmas probably better than any human on the planet...or at least as good as the best.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [allenpg] [ In reply to ]
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allenpg wrote:
So, I saw this post and decided to upgrade the stock Shimano 6770 series on my 2012 Cannondale Supersix Evo using the new firmware (via the PCE-1 interface). My system uses the original external battery. Guess what...my system wouldn't shift after the upgrade. I put the battery in the charger and let it tank up. Put it back on the system and works fine now. I'm tempted to call Shimano and let them now (they are just a few miles from where I live). If you have an external battery, recharging in might solve the issue!

you saw the warning and then blew through it anyway? :)

if your bike is all 6770, there should not be an issue, so this wouldn't apply. weird that it wouldn't shift.
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Re: Di2 mix-and-match warning [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
That sure is a lot of typing to try and rationalize that it is ok for shimano to intentionally break people's bikes =)

I'm sure your rep is a nice guy. Someone at shimano corporate is a dickhead thoug!
nah, it's not a rationalization. ppl ran stuff in non-standard configs that shimano said would never work. yes, it sucks that a FW upgrade "broke" things, but if one uses a non-standard/non-supported config of anything, one should be cautious with "upgrades." shimano sure didn't help matters with a lack of documentation and in tempting people to upgrade (esp non-savvy users), but i wouldn't be as dramatic as you are being. :)

Edit to fix quotation...my new post was mistakenly looking like it was part of jack's post.
Last edited by: tetonrider: Aug 16, 14 20:32
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