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Re: December Swim Challenge [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Gary, I think you would approve of this.

20x25m sprint.....12.5m underwater dolphin sprint, 12.5m above water either free or fly. 10 seconds recovery and repeat. definitely a fun set. My entire body is sore like I was just increased the weights in the weight room (which is basically what this work out is like as it's like doing 20x12 "reps" circuit training. The funny part is that this was the "main set" during a 90 min swim. The "other set" was 5x200m IM as 50 fly-25 back-25 breast-100 free.

Also did one set of 5x100m fins as 25m underwater dolphin sprint, 25m free easy, 25 back kick hard, 25 fly hard, 30 seconds rest repeat. Focus of this was kicking hard with quads on all phases other than the second 25m of easy free.

Dev
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Re: December Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


Gary, I think you would approve of this.

20x25m sprint.....12.5m underwater dolphin sprint, 12.5m above water either free or fly. 10 seconds recovery and repeat. definitely a fun set.

Sounds like a real lung burner!

My number one objective this winter/spring season is to get a USMS Nationals Qualifying Time of 20:33 in the 1650 before the Spring Nationals meet entry deadline. I've gotten to the point where I can hold that pace through a set that's well over 1650 yards long, now I'm trying to increase the work:rest ratio with longer repeats on ~same rest.

Today it was 20 x 125 on 1:55, targeting <1:32.5 I failed @ 14 & 19. I've been trying to work in an extra breath (breathing two consecutive strokes) going into a turn, but that's tough because I don't always come into the wall on the same stroke. Mid-set, I switched to breathing two consecutive strokes off the turn. That seemed to work a lot better. Going to continue to use that pattern for anything 500 pace or slower for the foreseeable future.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: December Swim Challenge [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:

I've gotten to the point where I can hold that pace through a set that's well over 1650 yards long, now I'm trying to increase the work:rest ratio with longer repeats on ~same rest.

Today it was 20 x 125 on 1:55, targeting <1:32.5 I failed @ 14 & 19.

Interesting. My goal for the winter is to try and get below 1:30 pace using usrpt 20x100s. Ive sorta been wondering how to transition from usrpt sets to full distance once I obtain my best pace over the winter. Do you plan to continue to extend the work interval? Up to what distance?

I'm also curious when to escalate the pace? I've been stuck with failing at 19 for a couple times. I've been wondering if I should escalate the pace or maybe extend beyond 20 reps until I fail a second time? I haven't been sure how to handle these very late set first fails where I could go beyond the prescribed 20 before a second failure?
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Upgraded my usrpt pace today to 1:36/100scy.

WU: 200ez

MS: 20x100 @1:36 (:20) failed at #9, #13, and #16

CD: 200ez

2000scy

Focus today was pretty simple. Hang onto the pace---being my first attempt at 1:36 (dropping 3 sec/100scy). That said....I noticed some side-side wobble in my left side pull. Basically my left hand fluttering like a leaf as it falls from a tree. So, I tried to focus on holding that steady and keeping the pull straight back---that was hard to fix. I also tried to focus on the mid-late portion of the stroke, and accelerating through the finish...the part that is more of a push rather than a pull. Seemed to help, though it resulted in some inconsistent pacing (I think)...with a 1:31, 1:33, and 1:34 mixed into the set while trying to maintain the 1:36 pace.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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8.6 mi run w/ 2 x 3 mi @ 8:41, 8:34
1175 yd swim

10 x 100 on 1:30
100 kick
50 swim
25 kick

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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first post on any swim challenge thread.
Recovering from artificial disc replacement in April (I got my left arm back, ye ha!), then nasty crash on the bike in late July took out right arm.

Just realized I did SBR yesterday. Bike 40k (20k "hard"), easy 5k run. Swim (was first when I was freshest)...

all SCY
300 easy
200 kick w/fins
1,000 medium (working on lower stroke count, slow- 15:15)
then 3x(50, 100, 300) all hard, between each: w/~20 rest, 50 swim (really slow), 30+ rest.
best 50's were 31, best 100 was 69, best 300 was 3:54 (haven't got my "toughness" back, yet)

3,300
making some slow progress (which is motivating)

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:

Interesting. My goal for the winter is to try and get below 1:30 pace using usrpt 20x100s. Ive sorta been wondering how to transition from usrpt sets to full distance once I obtain my best pace over the winter. Do you plan to continue to extend the work interval? Up to what distance?

I'm also curious when to escalate the pace? I've been stuck with failing at 19 for a couple times. I've been wondering if I should escalate the pace or maybe extend beyond 20 reps until I fail a second time? I haven't been sure how to handle these very late set first fails where I could go beyond the prescribed 20 before a second failure?





At what distance are you trying to get your pace below 1:30? That's a key component to formulating a plan.


As to whether you should go for more than one failure, the answer is "absolutely yes." One of the critical tenants of USRPT is that swimming to failure (neural fatigue, unable to hold the pace) is the catalyst for improvement, and you should structure the sets so that you swim to failure 3 times (or two consecutive failures) almost every time. While the science behind that claim is far from unimpeachable, I've had great success using USRPT to train for shorter distance races (500 and under) in the past. For races up to 200, the criteria for changing pace is quite clear. First of all, the "offering" is 7.5 times race distance, so 30x25 for 100 (on 15 seconds rest) and 30X50 (on 20 seconds rest) for 200. If you can do 4x race distance without a failure (i.e. 16 consecutive repeats) at pace, or you can do 6.5x race distance before failing the set, you're ready to advance the pace. Things get a little murkier at distances beyond that. The "book" calls for 30x50 or 24x75's for 400/500 races, but I've only found good workout-pace:race-pace correlation with 75's. The manual also calls for 30-35x75 or 24-30x100 for 1500/1650, but again I've personally found the correlations lacking. I'm still trying to find the right repeat-distance/#-of-repeats combination which correlates to 1650 race pace, but I suspect it's probably something like 18-20 consecutive 150's or 12-14 consecutive 200's. I'll have a better idea when I get a chance to actually race a 1650 again in mid-January.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: December Swim Challenge [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:


At what distance are you trying to get your pace below 1:30? That's a key component to formulating a plan.


Oly distance swim. So, 1650y.


ETA: At this point I am just using USRPT as a framework for getting faster through the end of January...and, expected that I'd have to determine how to extend that speed to a continuous 1650 after that. First Oly race isn't until late April...and my goal for 2018 year is to break 25 minutes for the Oly swim. Thus the pace target.

gary p wrote:


As to whether you should go for more than one failure, the answer is "absolutely yes." One of the critical tenants of USRPT is that swimming to failure (neural fatigue, unable to hold the pace) is the catalyst for improvement, and you should structure the sets so that you swim to failure 3 times (or two consecutive failures) almost every time.


yes, I've read that. I had an offline conversation with SnappingT, and he recommended the 20x100s. Initially 3 failures wasn't a concern. But, as November progressed I reached the point where the first failure was ~15+, at which point I might only fail once more or not at all. I followed up with Tim on this same issue, but I know he's busy (and I'm just a random internet guy) and I hadn't heard back...hence my question.

As noted above (in todays workout), I increased the pace this morning (to 1:36), so I'm back to failing three times. But, I'll increase the "offering" to something like 25-30 to ensure I fail correctly as the month progresses. I figured that was the case and that I was "leaving something on the table", by stopping short.

gary p wrote:

While the science behind that claim is far from unimpeachable, I've had great success using USRPT to train for shorter distance races (500 and under) in the past. For races up to 200, the criteria for changing pace is quite clear. First of all, the "offering" is 7.5 times race distance, so 30x25 for 100 (on 15 seconds rest) and 30X50 (on 20 seconds rest) for 200. If you can do 4x race distance without a failure (i.e. 16 consecutive repeats) at pace, or you can do 6.5x race distance before failing the set, you're ready to advance the pace. Things get a little murkier at distances beyond that. The "book" calls for 30x50 or 24x75's for 400/500 races, but I've only found good workout-pace:race-pace correlation with 75's. The manual also calls for 30-35x75 or 24-30x100 for 1500/1650, but again I've personally found the correlations lacking. I'm still trying to find the right repeat-distance/#-of-repeats combination which correlates to 1650 race pace, but I suspect it's probably something like 18-20 consecutive 150's or 12-14 consecutive 200's. I'll have a better idea when I get a chance to actually race a 1650 again in mid-January.


Ok, yes that's another question that I'd sent to Tim in the same message...in a slightly different form. I'd asked how to correlate the 20x100 pace to expected 1650 pace. ie, pace+10s or whatever. Sounds like you don't think it does, and that in general your experience at middle distance (and greater) is that longer work intervals correlate better with race results than the "book" currently prescribes.

I guess what you are learning makes sense compared to the shorter events, where the work-interval is a larger percentage of the race distance....eg 25% ish...and the total offering is (3-5x) many times the overall race distance. But, scaling that up to 1650 is unwieldy. I'd noted the same differences in the manual, but there isn't any explanation for "why". I'd actually done a bunch of google searching to try to find more data on the 1650 application.

Thanks.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Dec 6, 17 10:17
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Re: December Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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WU: 600m easy
MS: 6x (25/50/75/100/125/150/175/200); 10s
6000m
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:

I guess what you are learning makes sense compared to the shorter events, where the work-interval is a larger percentage of the race distance....eg 25% ish...and the total offering is (3-5x) many times the overall race distance. But, scaling that up to 1650 is unwieldy. I'd noted the same differences in the manual, but there isn't any explanation for "why". I'd actually done a bunch of google searching to try to find more data on the 1650 application.

Thanks.


A distance swimmer going by the book would be doing multiple (2-3) USRPT sets in a workout, and 9 workouts week, so maybe in that context the shorter prescribed repeat distances work. But for someone like me who has limited time and far less total exposure to race-paced work in a week, it doesn't seem to. It's a bit of a fool's errand, really, to try to hack my way to quality swims in the 1650 and the 200 fly on five to six 2000-3500 yard workouts a week, but that's what I'm trying to do.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 6, 17 10:36
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Re: December Swim Challenge [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:

A distance swimmer going by the book would be doing multiple (2-3) USRPT sets in a workout, and 9 workouts week, so maybe in that context the shorter prescribed repeat distances work. But for someone like me who has limited time and far less total exposure to race-paced work in a week, it doesn't seem to. It's a bit of a fool's errand, really, to try to hack my way to quality swims in the 1650 and the 200 fly on five to six 2000-3500 yard workouts a week, but that's what I'm trying to do.

Yeah well...that AINT happ'nin anytime soon, for me. My 5-6x @2.5-3k each is alls-I-can-stand...and is about double what I was doing "in season". Also, its probably 3x the weekly training stimulus with the usrpt sets vs. the mostly-drilling sets I was doing previously. I'm now 9 seconds faster per 100scy at this USRPT set than I was 6 weeks ago.

I don't have time for a 5k workout every day, or 30k per week. I also don't have the joint resilience for it. Something would breakdown...probably my left shoulder.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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WU:
200ez
2x50 kick

MS:

8x50 (:30) @0:45
5x100 (:30) @1:37
8x50 (:30) @0:45

CD:
200ez

1800scy

I cut it a bit short today, I skipped the last set of 5x100. Shoulders were fatigued from yesterday, and I tomorrow I've got another RPT set to do. The 50s were ok today, but the 100s degraded pretty quickly. So, I didn't want to compromise tomorrow by overdoing it today---I made that mistake last week. I'm thinking maybe I'll change up my "off day" swims to 30-40x50s at "pace" to reinforce the same neural patterns without some of the fatigue associated with the longer intervals.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Today - I forgot my workout and only had 50 mins so I did

400 WU 4 X (75 swim, 25 kick)

Swim Ladder

50
100
150
200
250
300
250
200
150
100
50

100 cool down

focused on quality flip turns and finishing my stroke at my him, gaining the last 3 inches of propulsion.

2300 ttl
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I slept in.

7.6 mi run w/ 1.66 mi (8:13, .66 @ 8:06) + .25 easy + 4.5 @ 8:06
400 yd swim

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Tigerchik wrote:
I slept in.

I should have, too... maybe
All this wind in Southern California has cooled the ocean down to 57-58, maybe 56 degrees. So that, combined with windchop and windchill, made for a cool swim experience. nevertheless, I got in 2375 yards in 36 and a half minutes. Getting out, I ran up and down the beach to generate some heat - didn't work that well. Two fingers where white and numb as were most of my toes. Surprisingly, I didn't shiver, but I'm sure it wasn't that point beyond hypothermia where shivering stops. Anyway, it took about an hour before my fingers returned to normal. My toes still, 4 hours later, are funky feeling. Planning on a run in an hour... see what happens.

I spent Wednesday in the pool - 2500 yards
10x100@1:30 1:25~1:12
4x200 kwf reverse IM order
200IM w/fins
200 pull
4x50@1:00 sprint 25/cruise 25
100 cool
and a 3.8 mile trail run at lunch.


Tuesday morning saw me in the ocean for a brief time, where I got in maybe 1200 yards because the ocean seemed colder, but the fierce wind was much colder. The chop was nasty and anytime I lifted my face out of the water, it stung. Around noon, a steep trail run of 4.1 miles.


Monday was no swim, but a nice, steep 6 mile trail run through O'Neill Park.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Do any of you fishes use monofins in your training? I currently use TYR burners, but I am seriously considering buying the Finis Trainer 1 monofin. I would like to hear of any positive or negative reviews of monofins in general and what type (if any) you fishes recommend.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [scooter58] [ In reply to ]
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scooter58 wrote:
Do any of you fishes use monofins in your training? I currently use TYR burners, but I am seriously considering buying the Finis Trainer 1 monofin. I would like to hear of any positive or negative reviews of monofins in general and what type (if any) you fishes recommend.

I have been eyeing them too, but never pulled out the wallet. It just feels like spending ~$100 on something that is 'almost achieved' keeping your feet close together would do it. But I am told it is quite different locking both legs into 100% sync. I would like to try them before dropping $$$ on them.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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2 mi walk, 3225 yd swim

5 x 100 on 1:30, extra :30 after the last one
200 on 3:00 (2:33)
5 x 100 on 1:30, extra :30 after the last one
2 x 200 on 3:30 (2:31, 2:33)
5 x 100 on 1:30, extra :30 after the last one
3 x 300 on 3:30 (2:33, 2:37, 2:36)
2 x 100 on 1:30
50 kick
100 fast 1:16
50 kick
100 fast 1:16
25 kick c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Mad at myself for not getting out of bed this morning. I was exhausted yesterday (probably sleep deprived from previous days). Couldn't bring myself to get up this am. My pool is closed for a swim meet tonight...maybe I can find a walk-in option somewhere.

Stroke lesson tomorrow.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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wow, had to click back all the way to page 4 to find the thread. anyway ... was too tired to swim when I got up yesterday, so I did some easy high cadence intervals on the bike first. short swim was later:

500 mixed bag w/u
12x25, 2-3sec RI
12x50 on :55
12x25, 2-3sec RI
12x50 on :50

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand
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Re: December Swim Challenge [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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yesterday 4.5 mile easy run
today raced a half marathon 1:51:20 ish (result not up), swam 1825 yds

swim 15 x 100 on 1:30 then 325 c/d alternate kick swim by 50

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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1 hour swim lesson yesterday, in and endless pool. No idea on yardage. I need to swim in that thing more often. It seems a lot like swimming in semi chop. I couldn't quite get the feel for my normal kick rhythm and timing. Just felt like I was out of sync.

General feedback during the lesson was that I'm putting up the stopsign during the extend, and also I wasn't completely finishing my stroke. I was letting my hand rotate thumbs down early and not finishing with my palm to the rear. I was also dropping my right elbow a bit during the transition from pull to push.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, just thought I would report back on some progress on dolphin kicking. I have been doing some 25m underwater sprints for the last bunch of workouts which typically go at 4x100 (25m underwater kick-25 moderate free-25 hard fly-25m hard kick on back, 40 second rest repeat)....this is with fins. Or without fins 16-20m underwater dolphin with rest of length free, then 25m moderate free, 25m hard fly, 25m kick on back.

Now having that established, I just tallied my year's mileage and later this week I will hit 1200K swimming for the year (basically a bit over 100K per month, every month,all strokes).

Soooooo for my 1200th kilometer, I will repeat the 1000m time trial alterating 50m fly-50 m free time 10. In the spring I did this in 18:34. I told myself, I want to break 18 min by the end of the year, but I have been mainly focusing on different technical aspects rather than mindlessly chasing the clock......underwater dolphin has been a part of creating a better conditioned core, better streamline, and better power endurance.

In any case, today my main set was 500m as 50/50 fly free, 100m kick, 200 IM as 50 fly-25 back-25 breast-100 free. Then I did the final 500m again as 50/50 but with medium size padels on and timed it. I surprised myself with a sub 8:20. That puts me on a pace for sub 18 min for 1000m and maybe even close to 17:30. But I had paddles on and it is half the distance. I'll be giving the TT a go on Thursday.

Also tried something interesting. On the fly legs I breathed only once every 2 strokes as I can pull harder with head down....and on the free leg for the first 25m, I breathed every arm entry (both sides) and for second 25, every second to totally oxygen top up for the fly leg....felt like being in a bike criterium with guys jacking up the intensity on me and doing the yoyo thing. But it was a lot faster than in the spring.

I am also trying to decide on the fly if I get the most power in the front of the catch (above my head to nose level) or from chin level to belly button segment of the body. Honestly I can't tell where I should apply harder force....thoughts?
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 10, 17 18:11
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Hmph. Well today sucked, and I'm not sure why. Slow...lots of strokes. Pushed through anyway. Hope tomorrow is more "as expected".

WU:
200ez
2x50 kick

MS:
12x100 (:20)
2x200 (:30)

CD:
100 ez

1900 scy

It was supposed to be a USRPT day. But, it was clear something was "off" early on. 200ez was slow, kicking was slow, spl was high (+3), and pace fell off fast on the first few 100s. Backed off trying to hold the pace, but decided not to bail on the workout entirely. I really don't have an explanation for the day. Maybe since I missed Friday, and my lesson on Saturday was in an endless pool...its just been "too long" since I was in real water. Dunno. Hope tomorrow brings things back to normal.
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Re: December Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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today I ran 8.5 miles w/ 2 @ 8:37, 2 @ 8:27, and 5k @ 8:20
then 1075 yd swim

100, 150, 100, 200, 100 on a 1:30 base
2 x [50 kick + 100 fast] 1:15s
25 kick c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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