Death of Long and Low Geometry

Oct 22, 14 9:05

Post #1 of 214 (16686 views)

There's been a convergence in the bike industry to Trek's middle of the road geometry. I can't say I blame the industry for moving towards that direction, but I believe the trend is preventing us from achieving faster, more aero positions.

My position, which doesn't seem extreme by any means, cannot be replicated on a single super bike due to the lack of reach, excess stack, and lack of extension tilt.

My only option for a faster frame is picking up a used P4, which is still a bit of compromise with the rear braking and wheel with limitations.

How do you guys feel about bike geometry? What would you like to see in the future?

Last edited by: Nick B: Oct 22, 14 9:15

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:13

Post #2 of 214 (16636 views)

The Felt DA series appears to be long and low. Is that an option for you?

jaretj

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:14

Post #3 of 214 (16629 views)

jaretj wrote:

The Felt DA series appears to be long and low. Is that an option for you?

jaretj

I don't consider the Felt DA series a superbike based on it's drag numbers.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:16

Post #4 of 214 (16611 views)

size way down and use a really long stem?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:18

Post #5 of 214 (16602 views)

On a sz 51 NP2/3 I'd have to use a 160mm stem.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:18

Post #6 of 214 (16599 views)

jackmott wrote:

size way down and use a really long stem?

worked for Crowie

(in the same position OP, the Slice RS maybe?)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Last edited by: leegoocrap: Oct 22, 14 9:19

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:29

Post #7 of 214 (16541 views)

I had a 54 P2 with a slammed -25* stem and was able to move to a Shiv TT (L) with no issues. Probably could have gone with a Medium as well, but the Pad Reach for the L was bang-on my number (495). I use the forward SP, but the bike can get pretty damn long with the rear SP (although it may close your hip angle).

But I hear ya.....Long & Low is definitely phasing out in regards to bike selection. I don't see me getting rid of my Shiv TT anytime soon as a result (well that and the fact that it is pretty damn slippery!!) My LTS keeps trying to get me to go to a Shiv Tri, but there is no way I could ride one. Either I can't get low enough or I would need a stoopid long stem. I have no interest in riding a 130mm stem on a tri bike.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:32

Post #8 of 214 (16523 views)

Nick B wrote:

On a sz 51 NP2/3 I'd have to use a 160mm stem.

Maybe it will work

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:45

Post #9 of 214 (16472 views)

I'm curious...can we add some pad stack and reach numbers to this conversation? i.e. what are the horizontal and vertical distance from the bb to your arm pads?

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:56

Post #10 of 214 (16415 views)

Wait, maybe I missed something. Is there good drag data for the newer felt da somewhere?

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Runless] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:05

Post #11 of 214 (16388 views)

Runless wrote:

Wait, maybe I missed something. Is there good drag data for the newer felt da somewhere?

^^^This. When did the DA "fall out" of the superbike category????

-Stephen in Arkansas

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [razorbacksteve] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:06

Post #12 of 214 (16368 views)

Marginally faster than a Shiv which is ~ Old P3 at low yaw.

Last edited by: Nick B: Oct 22, 14 10:07

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:07

Post #13 of 214 (16363 views)

The Giant Trinity Advanced is pretty long and low.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Rover24] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:08

Post #14 of 214 (16357 views)

Rover24 wrote:

The Giant Trinity Advanced is pretty long and low.

Not a super bike either, has similar performance to an old p3.

Last edited by: Nick B: Oct 22, 14 10:08

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:16

Post #15 of 214 (16311 views)

I agree it is getting harder to find. Im almost 6'4" with a 32" inseam. I ended up on a speed concept 9 series with the extensions as low as possible in order to get moderately aggressive.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:21

Post #16 of 214 (16270 views)

Nick B wrote:

[Felt DA]Marginally faster than a Shiv which is ~ Old P3 at low yaw.

I thought it was Transition ~ P3C. It's safe to assume SHIV > Transition.

Last edited by: Jamaican: Oct 22, 14 10:23

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:29

Post #17 of 214 (16228 views)

I feel like the newest SC gives some good long-low options...

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Jamaican] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:32

Post #18 of 214 (16208 views)

To the OP, have you tested this position? I note that your chest is almost downsloping, and you are possibly showing more back to the wind than necessary. Steve hed used to say he aimed for a chest angle close to about 5 degrees above horizontal and that a flat chest was too low usually.

so, you may be too low.

second, your body type is likely an outlier. I mean, you have an adjustable stem on what is one of the longest/lowest bikes.

Third, I think faster bikes than your alloy p3 but close in geometry are the shiv tt, felt da, or qr cd.01. Or you can sit around waiting for another swing in geometry trends which may never come...

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:33

Post #19 of 214 (16199 views)

Good info. Where is that data from?

-Stephen in Arkansas

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:36

Post #20 of 214 (16188 views)

I noticed a few things in your position which lead to the requirement of super long and low (Trek's older OCLV frames were notoriously long and low 56 TT + 51ST c-c, but not super bike today).

1. Long torso,
2. shorter legs,
3. sit very much forward,
4. humped back.

Re 1 and 2, we are all built a bit differently, nothing one can do. Re 3, have you tried sliding back a bit? Your hip angle is amply open. Re 4, this may be less aero than a flat back. In other words, your elbows may get a bit higher without becoming less aero.

Of course this is all speculation from looking at a single picture. Purely for your reference.

http://www.falcobike.com
https://www.facebook.com/falcobikeglobal
http://www.twitter.com/Falco_Bike
falcobike@gmail.com

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Jamaican] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:38

Post #21 of 214 (16176 views)

Jamaican wrote:

Nick B wrote:

[Felt DA]Marginally faster than a Shiv which is ~ Old P3 at low yaw.

I thought it was Transition ~ P3C. It's safe to assume SHIV > Transition.

The data suggests Transition ~ Shiv at the most common yaw angles.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Runless] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:41

Post #22 of 214 (16161 views)

Runless wrote:

To the OP, have you tested this position?

I'm sure he did. I remember seeing Wind Tunnel pics at some point.

#stalker

Last edited by: Jamaican: Oct 22, 14 10:45

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Runless] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:43

Post #23 of 214 (16143 views)

Runless wrote:

To the OP, have you tested this position? I note that your chest is almost downsloping, and you are possibly showing more back to the wind than necessary. Steve hed used to say he aimed for a chest angle close to about 5 degrees above horizontal and that a flat chest was too low usually.

so, you may be too low.

second, your body type is likely an outlier. I mean, you have an adjustable stem on what is one of the longest/lowest bikes.

Third, I think faster bikes than your alloy p3 but close in geometry are the shiv tt, felt da, or qr cd.01. Or you can sit around waiting for another swing in geometry trends which may never come...

The position was optimized during a wind tunnel session without an aero front wheel and a much less aero frame with a CdA of 0.257 w/ tare. Looking at some files from races my current CdA is 0.235-0.240 with full gear. Switching to a faster frame will drop me to ~0.225.

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [threefire] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:52

Post #24 of 214 (16090 views)

threefire wrote:

I noticed a few things in your position which lead to the requirement of super long and low (Trek's older OCLV frames were notoriously long and low 56 TT + 51ST c-c, but not super bike today).

1. Long torso,
2. shorter legs,
3. sit very much forward,
4. humped back.

Re 1 and 2, we are all built a bit differently, nothing one can do. Re 3, have you tried sliding back a bit? Your hip angle is amply open. Re 4, this may be less aero than a flat back. In other words, your elbows may get a bit higher without becoming less aero.

Of course this is all speculation from looking at a single picture. Purely for your reference.

My power really suffers if I close the hip angle anymore.

Last edited by: Nick B: Oct 22, 14 10:52

Re: Death of Long and Low Geometry [Runless] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:53

Post #25 of 214 (16077 views)

that bike is too small/short for him.

if he had a bigger size he'd be less egg-shaped and more able to disappear behind shrugged shoulders/head

so basically, I agree with you

Runless wrote:

To the OP, have you tested this position? I note that your chest is almost downsloping, and you are possibly showing more back to the wind than necessary. Steve hed used to say he aimed for a chest angle close to about 5 degrees above horizontal and that a flat chest was too low usually.

so, you may be too low.

second, your body type is likely an outlier. I mean, you have an adjustable stem on what is one of the longest/lowest bikes.

Third, I think faster bikes than your alloy p3 but close in geometry are the shiv tt, felt da, or qr cd.01. Or you can sit around waiting for another swing in geometry trends which may never come...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.